The Islam & Muslims discussion megathread

[Waxen_Pith 10]

Downtroad,

 

Well, you're correct in a limited sort of way but I don't see the Animal Rights people ....et al ...as having a 'world view'. Their focus is much narrower.The point about the Islamists and the Communists is that they are [or were] in control of quite powerful countries, have[or, again,had]millions of disciplined followers, all educated and brainwashed in a very similar fashion as to beliefs,all united in their hatred and/or contempt for the Western way of life, centrally controlled with the 'message' being given out weekly via mosques or party meetings in their thousands and the dominance of the Charismatic founders of the movement.

 

The only comparable set-up, I think, has been National Socialism and whereas the Communists and the Islamists seem to regard anyone as convertible material, I'm sure the Nazis were not interested in converting everyone in the world!

 

However, if you can see no difference between the Animal Rights movement or whatever and the international aspects of Islam or Communism, then I don't suppose whatever anyone says will persuade you otherwise.

 

Given that Christian fundamentalism is on the rise and secularism is on the decrease in America, and their special brand of evangelical beliefs seem to harbour all the attributes, in negative, to the picture you paint of Islam, I'd say we're in for a rough ride.

 

PS - thought I'd point out that by negative I mean a dislike for all things east.

[downtroad 10]

Downtroad,

 

Well, the state of Iraq was secularised, as is Turkey, of course but I'm not sure if that is what Lord Chaverly meant.

 

Britain is a secular state but Christianity has a far, far looser grip on life here than Islam has on its followers.

 

Yep Turkey as well.

 

Not sure either, but I just wanted to point out that Islam has been secularized and it's hardly a "fact" to say it hasn't. Of course if we spin it to something like "entirely secularized" then really that applies to most religions, and really their wouldn't be a point then. The point being made appeared to be "Ahh Islam, danger! Danger! It can resist secularism! Danger. Fear. Snore."

 

That also appears to be your point in comparing communism and Islam. But if you want to make that comparison go ahead. Communism with all the power of the former U.S.S.R a country with enough nuclear weapons to destroy the World entirely was defeated without even one of those missiles being fired.

 

If you add up all the countries in the World where Islam is the major religion (secularized or not) you still end up with a handful of nuclear weapons and some rag tag armies. Big deal. We won the idea wars before. Externally and internally. Democracy won through, and the next ideology will win through after Democracy. If it is better for the people, it will always win, it just needs time... not bombs.

[El-Mariachi 10]

In my opinion it is true, although of course it depends on one's definition of 'modernity' and of what the Islamic fanatics are seeking to achieve. I believe that the return to a 'pure' form of Islam, based as far as possible upon a literal interpretation of the Koran, does involve a rejection of modernity, in particular of the scientific mode of thinking which has led to the transformation of the world in recent centuries. Its interesting that, some years ago, an Egyptian scientist questioned whether Islam was compatible with modern science (he thought it was an impediment to it) and was executed for daring even to raise the issue. The Taliban (who are so admired by many of these fanatics) are probably the best example of the rejection of modernity, but there are many others. The fact that Islam is the only one of the major religions which has not been secularised is also interesting in this context.

 

Like you said it all comes back to what the definition of modernity is.

I on the other hand haven't heard anything from the "fundamentalists" to suggest they have problem with science (perhaps with some of the ethics, but not science). Certainly, Islam (from what I've read) has a longer history of science than we have in the West so how anyone could have a problem with science I dont know.

 

How can a religion be secularised? Aren't govt's secularised (not religions) ?

[downtroad 10]

Downtroad,

 

Well, you're correct in a limited sort of way but I don't see the Animal Rights people ....et al ...as having a 'world view'. Their focus is much narrower.The point about the Islamists and the Communists is that they are [or were] in control of quite powerful countries, have[or, again,had]millions of disciplined followers, all educated and brainwashed in a very similar fashion as to beliefs,all united in their hatred and/or contempt for the Western way of life, centrally controlled with the 'message' being given out weekly via mosques or party meetings in their thousands and the dominance of the Charismatic founders of the movement.

 

Animal rights activists beleive a large part of our way of life is wrong. That we should not treat animals in that way. Now it's not our entire life, but communism and any other ideology only deals with certain aspects. The basic points you made appeal to both communists and animal rights people.

 

Ideologies are ideologies. People who have them beleive in their world view, they have other that also beleive in them, and they have differen degrees of followers. Some willing to do damage and even kill.

[Fareast 10]

Yes, if Christian fundamentalism is on the rise in the U.S.A. and secularism is declining, I agree that it is a bad sign.

 

However, America is a very diffuse country[if that's the correct word ?] with each state having some power, lots of different political parties and organisations,countless religions and many other power groups.

 

Also no political party is guaranteed to rule for more than a few years and no president can be in power for more than 8 years.This is what gives the West, despite its faults, its attractions and vitality and why, despite all the rhetoric from the Islamic and Communist rulers, millions of people from the Middle East and the old Soviet bloc have migrated there or would give their right arms to get there.

 

I'm honestly not sure if I would ever describe 'Capitalism' as an ideology.I have never seen it so described before.It's a loose economic way of life or system but it is rather stretching it to dub it an 'ideology' ;a misuse of the word in my view.Where is the central belief ? How disciplined is it ? Has it got a universal end view in mind?Was it mapped out, more or less by a few thinkers, believers and philosophers whom its adherents follow?

 

An ideology ? No.A pretty chaotic, freewheeling, interesting mish-mash? Yes .

[LordChaverly 10]

Like you said it all comes back to what the definition of modernity is.

I on the other hand haven't heard anything from the "fundamentalists" to suggest they have problem with science (perhaps with some of the ethics, but not science). Certainly, Islam (from what I've read) has a longer history of science than we have in the West so how anyone could have a problem with science I dont know.

 

How can a religion be secularised? Aren't govt's secularised (not religions) ?

 

Most, if not all, of the supposed scientific achievements of the so-called Islamic 'golden age' derived from discoveries or inventions made in areas subjugated by the Islamic conquerers and many of these can be traced back to Roman, Greek and Persian civilizations. It is true that in some eras Islamists were much more open to scientific inquiry than their counteparts today, but that is not necessarily saying very much about the compatibility of Islam with modern science. The economic and technological backwardness of most Islamic countries is in my view no accident of history. I believe that Islam has a lot to do with it. As for secularisation, a religion can indeed be secularised, in that its adherents do not regard its holy books as literal truth and do not allow its doctrines to guide their every action in daily life. If you take Christianity for example (or indeed liberal Judaism or Shintoism or Buddhism) the church largely accepts that there are limitations on its role in governmental affairs and tends to accept that, for most of its adherents, observance of rituals, or even of the practice of fundamental religious precepts, will not be a dominant, or for that matter not even a very important, aspect of their lives.

[downtroad 10]

 

An ideology ? No.A pretty chaotic, freewheeling, interesting mish-mash? Yes .

 

You should read Atlas Shrugged. A comparison of Communism and free market Capitalism by a woman who just moved from the U.S.S.R.

 

Free market capitalism is certainly an ideology. By any definition i can think of.

[El-Mariachi 10]

Most, if not all, of the supposed scientific achievements of the so-called Islamic 'golden age' derived from discoveries or inventions made in areas subjugated by the Islamic conquerers and many of these can be traced back to Roman, Greek and Persian civilizations. It is true that in some eras Islamists were much more open to scientific inquiry than their counteparts today, but that is not necessarily saying very much about the compatibility of Islam with modern science. The economic and technological backwardness of most Islamic countries is in my view no accident of history. I believe that Islam has a lot to do with it. As for secularisation, a religion can indeed be secularised, in that its adherents do not regard its holy books as literal truth and do not allow its doctrines to guide their every action in daily life. If you take Christianity for example (or indeed liberal Judaism or Shintoism or Buddhism) the church largely accepts that there are limitations on its role in governmental affairs and tends to accept that, for most of its adherents, observance of rituals, or even of the practice of fundamental religious precepts, will not be a dominant, or for that matter not even a very important, aspect of their lives.

 

Surely if there was a fundamental abhorrance of science then the Early muslims would have simply destroyed all the discoveries and inventions of those that they conquered. Indeed, they would hardly have preserved the Greek texts, texts we translated back from Arabic???

 

Yes many of them can be traced back to discoveries from even the Romans, but they will have themselves gained much of the fundamental understandings from those they had previously conquered, like for instance the Greeks.

 

No, I think that Islam unlike say the Church, didn't have any deep rooted dogma's that science contradicted.

 

As for the current economic and scientific backwardness, I think we're still seeing the reprecussions of dead empires being played out (along with perhaps a touch of "victimhood") which is not the best of cocktails, nor conducive to scientific development.

 

Religions are never "secularised" and Judaism certainly hasn't been secularised. We are perhaps confusing between those who practice their religions and those who are described as being part of the same group on ethnic grounds. Secularisation has NEVER been about interpretations or literal acceptance of texts. It is fundamentally a recognition of division of priesthood and leadership (govermental affairs).

 

Arabs are, having tried nationalism/secularism (Nasser/Saddam) , currently toying with Islamism.

 

Anyhow, going back to the original thread, the premise is not necessarily false but its certainly misconstrued. Many of the supposed parallels can be found with any ideology which has political aspirations for a grand (or micro utopia), beit Democracy, Capitalism, Islamism, Hinduism, Fascism, Zionism, etc.

[4U2NV 10]

How 'Democratic' Scopes trial

[El-Mariachi 10]

Cool! So no Muslims have any problem with the facts of human evolution, or the fact that the Earth came into being several billion years ago, and not a few thousand years ago as stated in the Bible?

 

Human evolution is the part of the theory of evolution by which human beings emerged as a distinct species. It is fairly broad, so which particular theories or Facts are you referring to. ?

 

No, from what I've read there is nothing about timelines, so no, muslims dont believe the world is 6000 or so year old.

[El-Mariachi 10]

This preservation was quite fortuitous, as witnessed e.g. by the destruction of the library at Cordoba by Almanzor in the late 10th Century AD. If the fundamentalists had got control of the entire Muslim Empire, it's unlikely that so many of the Classics would have been preserved.

 

I also suspect that the Classics were preserved through the Dark Ages in Christian as well as Muslim countries, but I don't have the knowledge to back that up.

 

You cant judge a whole empire(s) which existed over such a long period by certain exceptions. It would be like describing western secularism/enlightenment as being a failure because of GW Bush coming to power.

[El-Mariachi 10]

Not referring to any detailed theory - some of the details are still being clarified. Just referring to the established fact that we're part of the same stream of evolution that includes bacteria and blue whales, stromatolites and ... er ... something else beginning with 's' (sturgeons?)

 

I found this site which seems to summarise how muslims see science and their religion.

 

http://islam.about.com/od/creation/a/creation.htm

 

Its quite interesting as muslims believe all animal life to have been created from the sea's with the exception of humans.

 

 

The Qur'an describes that Allah "made from water every living thing" (21:30).

Another verse describes how "Allah has created every animal from water. Of them are some that creep on their bellies, some that walk on two legs, and some that walk on four. Allah creates what He wills, for truly Allah has power over all things" (24:45). These verses support the scientific theory that life began in the Earth's oceans.

 

however, humans are seen as an exception and somewhat distinct from the rest of the animal kingdom.

 

While Islam recognizes the general idea of the development of life in stages, over a period of time, human beings are considered as a special act of creation. Islam teaches that human beings are a unique life form that was created by Allah in a special way, with unique gifts and abilities unlike any other: a soul and conscience, knowledge, and free will. In short, Muslims do not believe that human beings randomly evolved from apes. The life of human beings began with the creation of two people, a male and a female named Adam and Hawwa (Eve).

 

The Qur'an describes how Allah created Adam: "We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape..." (15:26). And, "He began the creation of man from clay, and made his progeny from a quintessence of fluid" (32:7-. Thus, human beings have a fundamental attachment to the earth

 

I recollecting reading an assertion that all humans (I'm assuming that Islam views homosapiens as being different from the other humanoids that have existed) are believed to have descended from a single "eve" female.