Do we really need all the 'stuff' we have in life?

[Cavegirl 10]

Do you have links to studies that show that capitalist growth is all about the population?

 

I don't think anybody is really tackling this issue Cyclone, David Harvey brings it up occasionally during some of his lectures but hasn't really looked at the data as far as I can tell.

 

World population growth increases annually at around 1.096%. When capitalism began the world population was around 1 billion people/ consumers so it could grow quite merrily at 3% into this existing population. 3% exponential growth of a smaller subset is still smaller than 1.1% growth of the overall set, but eventually it will catch up and begin to overtake the overall set. I suggest we're getting towards that point now.

 

So why don't we do some original research on SF? You're a left-brained kinda guy/gal and I assume you like a challenge and will trust your own results far more than any paper I can produce for you. I'm not so great at maths and it would take me ages to work this out, but if you're not up for the challenge I'll do it.

 

Start in 1600AD with 1 billion people and add exponentially 1.096% each year.

Start with the population of the Netherlands in 1600AD which was 1.5 million and add 2.5% exponential growth per year (reduced to account for internal growth). Can you discover what year the second subset overtakes the first main set?

 

I'd be very interested in the answer. We know that when the second overtakes the first we'll have total market saturation and will rely upon 2.5% population growth/ new consumers each year for capitalism to expand 'healthily'.

[Cyclone 10]

I'd have thought that capitalism started much much earlier than that.

 

The forumula is pretty easy to put together and solve

 

1000000000*1.01096^x = 1500000*1.025^x

 

Solve for x.

 

But I don't think this somehow represents the penetration of capitalism into the world population.

[carosio 187]

Sad to say I think it's absolutely necessary because we're socially conditioned from birth these days to associate material posessions with personal status and value. We're addicted to them. .

 

Do you have any ideas or proposals on tackling your addiction Cavegirl? And what about refusing to have any children (population), many have done so.

[Cavegirl 10]

I'd have thought that capitalism started much much earlier than that.

 

The forumula is pretty easy to put together and solve

 

1000000000*1.01096^x = 1500000*1.025^x

 

Solve for x.

 

But I don't think this somehow represents the penetration of capitalism into the world population.

 

It doesn't represent the real world of course that's a far more complex issue. This is a purely academic exercise but it's designed to provide a more realistic idea of what 3% exponential growth of capitalism in our global population really means.

 

It's much easier for capitalists to sell to fresh markets- people who don't have a phone will buy a phone, people who already have a phone must be convinced to give up their current phone for a new one and that means the extra expense of research and development alongside marketing for the phone manufacturers. Now that the large fresh markets of Russia and China are becoming saturated where do capitalists find that fresh easy growth? Essentially they must invest money into developing markets which they won't like doing much and then they need to start pushing population growth. Alternatively capitalism will either have to develop into essentially a stagnant economic model relying on growth of up to 0.5% per annum or something new will have to replace it.

[Arrr Sez I 10]

It's much easier for capitalists to sell to fresh markets- people who don't have a phone will buy a phone, people who already have a phone must be convinced to give up their current phone for a new one and that means the extra expense of research and development alongside marketing for the phone manufacturers. Now that the large fresh markets of Russia and China are becoming saturated where do capitalists find that fresh easy growth? Essentially they must invest money into developing markets which they won't like doing much and then they need to start pushing population growth. Alternatively capitalism will either have to develop into essentially a stagnant economic model relying on growth of up to 0.5% per annum or something new will have to replace it.

 

And there was me and every other major business on the planet thinking that companies get the most long term growth and lifetime revenue out of their markets by promoting more and more products to their EXISTING customer base. Who knew we all had it so wrong.

[Cavegirl 10]

Do you have any ideas or proposals on tackling your addiction Cavegirl? And what about refusing to have any children (population), many have done so.

 

Look at most of my past posts Carosio, I'm constantly trying to convince people to look at other models for living rather than capitalism or agreeing with others when they present new ideas.

 

I know I'm addicted, I'm as conditioned as anyone else to value and view my life through what I own. Just the other week I was really angry with myself because I was walking along the side of the canal in the sunshine and a mother duck with her babies came swimming towards me and instead of watching the beauty of the scene I was too busy looking for my phone so I could take a photo, by the time I got it out the ducks were gone. Like everyone else I automatically seek the fake over the real due to our technological lifestyles, but at least I recognise that, I try to prevent myself when I can and learn from my mistakes when I don't- most people wouldn't even consider the situation from that perspective.

 

I know that there are people in Africa who can sit by a roadside for hours waiting for a bus, perfectly happy with their own thoughts and no other form of entertainment day after day after day and I know that I couldn't do that because I've been conditioned throughout my life to be plugged in, to be entertained and I find that sad, I find that philosophically speaking I'm less than human because of it.

 

I want us to have an economic model that doesn't create and maintain hierarchies so that some have too much whilst others have too little, I want us to have a model based upon stability rather than profit motive, based upon cooperation rather than competition. A model that allows people to be exactly what they want to be, to acheive their full potential. A model that utilises resources intelligently rather than wastes them which would enable us to support many more people, perhaps even populate zones that seem impossible to populate under profit driven capitalism. There are ideas for these types of models of living out there, but it requires a social change to adopt them, I can move my life more towards them but I can't live them and that is frustrating.

 

I don't want to be psychologically addicted to the way I live, I want to be adaptable, I want to be human. I'm ready to change, I spend a lot of my life studying how best to change, I've been ready to begin for a long time, but society isn't ready to change and probably won't be during my lifetime unless of course it's forced to and that would be pretty catastrophic.

 

---------- Post added 20-07-2013 at 17:11 ----------

 

And there was me and every other major business on the planet thinking that companies get the most long term growth and lifetime revenue out of their markets by promoting more and more products to their EXISTING customer base. Who knew we all had it so wrong.

 

You're a landlord Arr Sez I right? Do you aim to grow your business purely through your existing lettings or would you find it more profitable to add more houses and gain new tenants for your existing portfolio? Expansion is growth and expansion requires fresh consumers. You won't get much by offering your current tenants an extra bathroom in their home because they probably won't need one (though in your case I realise there may be exceptions )Your existing customers simply pay for you to grow.

[Arrr Sez I 10]

You're a landlord Arr Sez I right? Do you aim to grow your business purely through your existing lettings or would you find it more profitable to add more houses and gain new tenants for your existing portfolio? Expansion is growth and expansion requires fresh consumers. You won't get much by offering your current tenants an extra bathroom in their home because they probably won't need one (though in your case I realise there may be exceptions )Your existing customers simply pay for you to grow.

 

I invest in property. I earn money to invest through business. The only thing I care about in business is to maximise the long term ROI of my existing customers who have already proven themselves to spend money with me. I understand the new customer acquisition cost and I know the much higher value of existing customers. The chances I have of selling a much more expensive product to an existing customer is far greater than the chance I have of selling a new customer a cheaper product as I don't already have a relationship with them. Of course I always want to bring in new customers, but, the greatest growth in business is by focusing on maximising long term ROI of existing customers who have already bought the higher priced products and increasing my product offerings to these clients in the future. It's the greatest strategy in the history of business, which is why it's used by all the majors.

Edited July 25, 2013 by Arrr Sez I

[Cyclone 10]

It doesn't represent the real world of course that's a far more complex issue. This is a purely academic exercise but it's designed to provide a more realistic idea of what 3% exponential growth of capitalism in our global population really means.

 

It's much easier for capitalists to sell to fresh markets- people who don't have a phone will buy a phone, people who already have a phone must be convinced to give up their current phone for a new one and that means the extra expense of research and development alongside marketing for the phone manufacturers. Now that the large fresh markets of Russia and China are becoming saturated where do capitalists find that fresh easy growth? Essentially they must invest money into developing markets which they won't like doing much and then they need to start pushing population growth. Alternatively capitalism will either have to develop into essentially a stagnant economic model relying on growth of up to 0.5% per annum or something new will have to replace it.

 

Mobile phones are a relatively new product of course... Which sort of implies that capitalism is a good way of new products and entire new classes of product being developed. Mobile phones have revolutionised communication, they're not a bad thing. And yes, the market for them is probably saturated and many people aren't on an endless treadmill of upgrading (some are, many aren't). But I don't think a single market is really representative of the entirety of capitalism.

 

Re:growth, companies selling commodities are less interested in a relationship than companies selling services. Orange do there best to keep me as a customer, ideally they'd like me to buy more services and spend more money. Samsung would like it if I bought another phone from them, but if they can convince 10 new African customers to buy one instead, that suits them as well. In their perfect world, they'll sell 11 phones, to them it makes little difference if I'm existing or new. The only thing they don't want to do is sell a bad product because then they follow Nokia from being the biggest phone manufacturer in the world, to an also ran.

Edited July 20, 2013 by Cyclone

[Cavegirl 10]

I invest in property. I earn money to invest through business. The only thing I care about in business is to maximise the long term ROI of my existing customers who have already proven themselves to spend money with me. I understand the new customer acquisition cost and I know the much higher value of existing customers. The chances I have of selling a much more expensive product to an existing customer is far greater than the chance I have of selling a new customer a cheaper product as I don't already have a relationship with them. Of course I always want to bring in new customers, but, the greatest growth in business is by focusing on maximising long term ROI of existing customers who have already bought the higher priced products and increasing my product offerings to these clients in the future. It's the greatest strategy in the history of business, which is why it's used by all the majors.

[snip for space saving]

 

And that is how it's done.

 

I see how you've tried to twist things there, but I'm afraid your growth has actually come mainly from filling the old smaller house with fresh new tenants - the growth of your business actually comes from introducing new homes and new tenants irrespective of what your old tenants are up to.

 

Your existing tenant was paying let's say £650 a month, but upgrades from a 3 bed to a 4 bed so they're now paying £800 a month- giving you an extra £150 a month from them. Your new tenant is paying £650 a month for the original house which is much greater completely new income. Previously you had £650 coming in, but by adding a new house and a new tenant you now have £1450 coming in regardless of which house is occupied by whom. Whether the new tenant moves into the more or less expensive house they are the ones really increasing your profit margins.

[Arrr Sez I 10]

I see how you've tried to twist things there, but I'm afraid your growth has actually come mainly from filling the old smaller house with fresh new tenants - the growth of your business actually comes from introducing new homes and new tenants irrespective of what your old tenants are up to.

 

Your existing tenant was paying let's say £650 a month, but upgrades from a 3 bed to a 4 bed so they're now paying £800 a month- giving you an extra £150 a month from them. Your new tenant is paying £650 a month for the original house which is much greater completely new income. Previously you had £650 coming in, but by adding a new house and a new tenant you now have £1450 coming in regardless of which house is occupied by whom. Whether the new tenant moves into the more or less expensive house they are the ones really increasing your profit margins.

 

I haven't twisted anything. You misunderstand, maybe I wasn't clear. I also have a company in a non property related business space, that is my "day job". I see property investment as just that. The money I put into property is just to leverage my profits from the business, a place to dump money after paying corp tax. I'm sure as hell not going to leave it in ANY type of savings account, I get a much higher return on my investment dumping it in property. The way property investment operates is very different to how a business operates which is what I was talking about in relation to "business growth". I'm sorry but if you honestly thought I was relating property investment to business, it is clear to me you are a total theorist. I live in the real world, I swim with the sharks. You just spout theory. It's not even remotely in the same league. Lets stop talking.

[Cavegirl 10]

Mobile phones are a relatively new product of course... Which sort of implies that capitalism is a good way of new products and entire new classes of product being developed. Mobile phones have revolutionised communication, they're not a bad thing. And yes, the market for them is probably saturated and many people aren't on an endless treadmill of upgrading (some are, many aren't). But I don't think a single market is really representative of the entirety of capitalism.

 

Re:growth, companies selling commodities are less interested in a relationship than companies selling services. Orange do there best to keep me as a customer, ideally they'd like me to buy more services and spend more money. Samsung would like it if I bought another phone from them, but if they can convince 10 new African customers to buy one instead, that suits them as well. In their perfect world, they'll sell 11 phones, to them it makes little difference if I'm existing or new. The only thing they don't want to do is sell a bad product because then they follow Nokia from being the biggest phone manufacturer in the world, to an also ran.

 

Thankyou for the maths by the way, sorry not to have said that before. Could you explain to me what 'raising something to the power of' means (this symbol ^) and how I go about it please? As I said, maths isn't my language and I am interested in the outcome.

 

Stuff was invented, produced and developed before capitalism came along, I don't think it really deserves a pat on the back for developing a wireless phone, but I agree that it is just one example of many products and I selected it purely as an example.

 

I also agree with you that the service sectors aim to build some sort of relationship with their customers- something I'd suggest the Americans are far better and far more advanced at than us Brits. One of the main problems with capitalism however, is that it reduces what were once diverse and complex social relationships to simple over the counter money transactions and any relationship built within it will always be a shadow of the types of relationships constructed before capitalism was introduced.

 

But even services suffer from market saturation issues and that's the same whether we're talking about local or global populations. Once a town for example, is saturated, the coffee shops become unprofitable until some shops collapse and the ones remaining retain stable profit with no chance of growth. It's the same for a town as it is for the whole world because both have a finite geography. So you see, it's very important for people to know when capitalism can no longer expand because then the model has to either stagnate, change or perish. We need to find better answers than to grow the population because this system is too destructive and wasteful to sustain more than double our current population growth.

 

---------- Post added 20-07-2013 at 21:42 ----------

 

I haven't twisted anything. You misunderstand, maybe I wasn't clear. I also have a company in a non property related business space, that is my "day job". I see property investment as just that. The money I put into property is just to leverage my profits from the business, a place to dump money after paying corp tax. I'm sure as hell not going to leave it in ANY type of savings account, I get a much higher return on my investment dumping it in property. The way property investment operates is very different to how a business operates which is what I was talking about in relation to "business growth". I'm sorry but if you honestly thought I was relating property investment to business, it is clear to me you are a total theorist. I live in the real world, I swim with the sharks. You just spout theory. It's not even remotely in the same league. Lets stop talking.

 

Hahaha, so you swim with sharks on a daily basis, yet it seems you run away from general conversations like a little girl. Toodle-pip!

[Arrr Sez I 10]

Hahaha, so you swim with sharks on a daily basis, yet it seems you run away from general conversations like a little girl. Toodle-pip!

 

No, there's just not much point wasting time if I can't learn anything from you. If you check my post talking about business, you will notice I mentioned "products" increasing "product offerings" etc. It was clear and yet you didn't get that. So you see, not much point if you can't grasp even the very basics of a conversation. So continue with your mass of waffle theory. You guys love the theory so you stick to that. Although to take away something, maybe I should start trying to up-sell my tenants. Hey guys, I will install a new plasma TV and coffee machine for just a 30% increase in your rent per month, What do you say? That could actually work. Maybe I have learned something after all.