Spanish locksmiths say "No hay más"

[donkey]

You realise that anyone can stand for parliament right? You don't need the permission or support of an existing party.

Why don't you both stand instead of just moaning that you don't like the people who do stand?

 

What has been said is a lot more complex than can be encapsulated in that sledgehammeringly subtle soundbite by which you have attempted to reduce the arguments, and which would be worthy of The Sun newspaper, or perhaps The Bunty comic.

 

Speaking for myself, it is because I am neither naive enough to continue believing the fairy stories I have been fed concerning politics, in the face of mountains of clear evidence they are not true, nor do I have the vested interest which might motivate me to delude myself that things are otherwise.

 

Thousands of people have stood without the backing of well connected people or powerful organisations. They have all failed utterly to ever get beyond minor and temporary office at the local level. If that is not the case, you will obviously be able to provide me with some names - or even just one - of people who have bucked the trend and risen to the top in politics, without the aid of a mainstream party machine?

 

I eagerly await you answer on this one. Failure to be able to provide one will - for obvious reasons - indicate to me that there is some disconnect between the crude propaganda which you have regurgitated above, and actual political realities.

Edited January 7, 2013 by donkey

[Cyclone]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_UK_minor_party_and_independent_MPs_elected

 

You'd think some people couldn't use google.

 

You're twisting my words quite a lot though aren't you. I believe what I said was that you could be elected to parliament by winning the vote whilst standing as a independent, no more and no less than that.

 

It's amazing how people who don't like the status quo manage to build up conspiracy theories which at first glance appear to have some sort of integrity, but when examined a bit more closely rely on happen stance and well, conspiracy, which is of course conveniently unprovable. If you question the theory though, you're the deluded one, who has a vested interest in believing in the status quo and is ignoring the evidence (the statement of the theorist being considered evidence apparently) to the contrary.

[donkey]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_UK_minor_party_and_independent_MPs_elected

 

You'd think some people couldn't use google.

 

You're twisting my words quite a lot though aren't you. I believe what I said was that you could be elected to parliament by winning the vote whilst standing as a independent, no more and no less than that.

 

It's amazing how people who don't like the status quo manage to build up conspiracy theories which at first glance appear to have some sort of integrity, but when examined a bit more closely rely on happen stance and well, conspiracy, which is of course conveniently unprovable. If you question the theory though, you're the deluded one, who has a vested interest in believing in the status quo and is ignoring the evidence (the statement of the theorist being considered evidence apparently) to the contrary.

 

Again you try and reduce my arguments to soundbites, this time by attempting to stereotype me as a conspiracy theorist. I am not a conspiracy theorist.

 

At no point did I mention a conspiracy. History proves that corruption is the natural state which political affairs always tend towards. I believe it mostly happens through the slow steady pressure of people acting in what they believe to be there own vested interests.

 

It is only avoided when people are not complacent, and a good place to start is by not believing the propaganda which emerges as a result of those vested interests.

[Mr Bloom]

Western democracy has been subverted by a system of legal bribery known as 'lobbying.' The more money you have the more political influence you can buy. Is it any wonder that the top politicians in all major parties are now posh boys who have been fast trascked to the top through a system of private educational institutions and internships? None of them have worked their way up the ranks, and none of them have anything in common with the majority of ordinary working class and middle class people. They are there to do the bidding of bankers, corporations and oligarchs. All other business comes second.

 

Until we do away with the systems by which politicians act as professional prostitutes to the highest bidder, we are doomed to live in a corporate dictatorship, where we have the democratic right to vote for this gang of lackeys, or the other gang of corporate lackeys over there. Unfortunately - given that any democratic means by which this situation could be remedied has been sold at auction - this is not a situation which is about to change any time soon.

 

I think that about sums up the feeling of the majority very well.

[Cyclone]

Again you try and reduce my arguments to soundbites, this time by attempting to stereotype me as a conspiracy theorist. I am not a conspiracy theorist.

You tried to reduce my disagreement to naivety or a vested interest and wilfull ignorance of reality. Quid pro quo I think.

 

At no point did I mention a conspiracy.

What you describe sounds a lot like one.

History proves that corruption is the natural state which political affairs always tend towards. I believe it mostly happens through the slow steady pressure of people acting in what they believe to be there own vested interests.

They probably are their own vested interests. And yes, corruption is a constant problem within any political system.

 

It is only avoided when people are not complacent, and a good place to start is by not believing the propaganda which emerges as a result of those vested interests.

A healthy level of cynicism is a sensible approach, I think you've gone well beyond healthy though.

[donkey]

You tried to reduce my disagreement to naivety or a vested interest and wilfull ignorance of reality. Quid pro quo I think.

What you describe sounds a lot like one.

They probably are their own vested interests. And yes, corruption is a constant problem within any political system.

A healthy level of cynicism is a sensible approach, I think you've gone well beyond healthy though.

 

It seems to me that you aren't actually saying anything at all, just arguing against people who are. You tried to defend the political system as it stands, but realising it is an indefensible position, you resort to vague accusations such as that I am going beyond 'a healthy level of cynicism' and am conspiracy theorist.

 

Could you be a bit more specific, and tell me exactly where I have described a conspiracy theory, and what, in particular, goes beyond a healthy level of cynicism?

Edited January 8, 2013 by donkey

[Tradescanthia]

It seems to me that you aren't actually saying anything at all, just arguing against people who are. You tried to defend the political system as it stands, but realising it is an indefensible position, you resort to vague accusations such as that I am going beyond 'a healthy level of cynicism' and am conspiracy theorist.

 

Could you be a bit more specific, and tell me exactly where I have described a conspiracy theory, and what, in particular, goes beyond a healthy level of cynicism?

 

"Never argue with an idiot. He'll drag you down to his level then beat you with experience." Anon.

[gnvqsos]

You need financial support and a good relationship with powerful media people to succeed. The fact that any candidate who falls short of these criterion never gets very far, provides a statistically based objective demonstration that this is true. It is pretty obvious that media barons and financial backers are going to put conditions on their support. If you don't meet those conditions, their are plenty of candidates who do.

 

Then there are the legions of ex-MPs and prime ministers who are awarded paid directorships in companies and corporations upon their retirement from (or sometimes during) political careers. Having supposedly been in full time employment, what could they possibly have done to earn these positions? Do business people lavish these rewards on them for nothing?

 

The fact that avenues to the top of politics for ordinary people have been pretty much shut down is beyond dispute. Andrew Neill demonstrated this in a comprehensive and well researched programme he made on the subject.

 

Or do you believe it is a coincidence that the political elite in all three main parties are extremely wealthy, privately educated and without life experience beyond their own social group?

 

How does one acquire life experience beyond your own social group?Many ex MPs are valued assets to PLCs,and many deserve a chance to feed at the trough along with others.You seem very bitter in your posts and have a very jaundiced view of those who have foregone careers in the City,to devote their careers to public service.

[donkey]

How does one acquire life experience beyond your own social group?Many ex MPs are valued assets to PLCs,and many deserve a chance to feed at the trough along with others.You seem very bitter in your posts and have a very jaundiced view of those who have foregone careers in the City,to devote their careers to public service.

 

First you - one, that is to say - must interpret the opinions of others without reference to their context, then you - one, I should say - must ensure the information is simplified so it can be fitted into the appropriate brain compartment for various incoming data. Example: Those who complain of corruption aren't worried about corruption at all. They are jealous or bitter. Hey presto. Subject dealt with. And that sir, is how one jolly well acquires life experience outside of ones own social group!

[gnvqsos]

First you - one, that is to say - must interpret the opinions of others without reference to their context, then you - one, I should say - must ensure the information is simplified so it can be fitted into the appropriate brain compartment for various incoming data. Example: Those who complain of corruption aren't worried about corruption at all. They are jealous or bitter. Hey presto. Subject dealt with. And that sir, is how one acquires life experience outside of ones own jolly social group!

 

I will give it a try tonight-sounds real simple and jolly handy.Thanks Mr Key.