Solar panels and council housing

[ricgem2002]

How many have been fitted to council homes?

Who agreed to them being fitted?

Who gets the FIT tariff?

Do the tenants get cheaper or free electricity?

Who is paying for them?

 

I cant find any recent information to the above on the Barnsley Council Site so perhaps you can help.

googles your friend http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/local/solar-panels-cash-cut-sparks-anger-1-3931758 allthough its out of date these are now up and running

 

---------- Post added 23-03-2013 at 20:06 ----------

 

They have recently fitted them to a row of oap council bungalows in chesterfield

so even more councils are getting in on the act

[Dromedary]

googles your friend http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/local/solar-panels-cash-cut-sparks-anger-1-3931758 allthough its out of date these are now up and running

 

---------- Post added 23-03-2013 at 20:06 ----------

 

so even more councils are getting in on the act

 

Google may be your friend but it still dose not come up with much in the way of Councils and Solar panels. The only info seems to be from the few small experiments that have been done in the past and no information on any proposed new ones.

 

When the FIT was at a high rate some Councils did consider installing some, and the key word there is some. Since the FIT has been cut they have realised that they do not get much in return for the outlay so most of the ideas have been abandoned. Now with the current cuts to local authorities I cant see them investing in them as the cost is too high.

 

Not only that with the current climate where people are being encouraged to be against those in Council properties, I doubt if many would be in favour of them also getting free electricity.

 

The Councils wasted a golden opportunity and needed to take advantage when the FIT was high and they didn't have that foresight. Now its a case of too little too late.

[ricgem2002]

Google may be your friend but it still dose not come up with much in the way of Councils and Solar panels. The only info seems to be from the few small experiments that have been done in the past and no information on any proposed new ones.

 

When the FIT was at a high rate some Councils did consider installing some, and the key word there is some. Since the FIT has been cut they have realised that they do not get much in return for the outlay so most of the ideas have been abandoned. Now with the current cuts to local authorities I cant see them investing in them as the cost is too high.

 

Not only that with the current climate where people are being encouraged to be against those in Council properties, I doubt if many would be in favour of them also getting free electricity.

 

The Councils wasted a golden opportunity and needed to take advantage when the FIT was high and they didn't have that foresight. Now its a case of too little too late.

its not to little to late thou isit have solar panel companies gone to the wall ? have you not seen solar panels springing up allover the place ?and what you on about with the current climate about people against people living in council houses ? if these same people thought it was a good idea that they would get cheaper electricity they would be demanding these to be fitted to council properties .we are constantly being told we need to create/save energy heres a chance for councils up and down the country to do something about it . look abroad houses/hotels even companies have these fitted are they all doing the wrong thing. while you think on ask yourself why the gov cut the tariffs

 

---------- Post added 31-03-2013 at 08:32 ----------

 

All suitable council houses should have panels fitted, and all profits should go to the council, the tenant should then pay the council for the electricity.

this should be taken up by the councils up and down the land

[whtara]

Eureka!!!!!!!!!!

After much negotiating, arguing and debating and asking some very awkward questions, SCC have agreed to give me permission to have solar panels installed. No council is ever going to permit a "green deal|" installation because a subsequent tenant would face increased fuel bill until the installation was paid for. That does make sense. SCC claim that in the current financial climate they cannot afford the investment. And that makes some sense too. But I couldn't see any reason why a tenant couldn't pay for an installation himself. Or even via a bank loan or similar.

Eventually, they caved in. They did a roof inspection this morning and agreed that it can carry the modest extra weight. They have asked me to use a company that provides an UNDERWRITTEN guarantee. (A warranty is useless if a firm goes belly up). They also checked that my internal wiring is OK. And so on. Everything OK. So now, I will get just one more quote, pick the installer, let the council look at the paperwork and I plan to have the installation at the end of August. No doubt there will be something in the Sheffield Star.

My house has a roof facing almost exactly south. The conservative guarantee that the firms are giving are for around 2kw production per hour. That would give me a return on my investment of 7.9%. My ISA comes nowhere near that!!!!

However, I happen to live about 200 metres from a Met Office weather station and get a live feed from them (sheffieldweather.co.uk) and on a bright cloudy day I get some 530watts / square metre On a dull day I get about 140 watts. In bright sunshine I get over 900 watts/square meter. My solar array will be either 10.0 or 13.5 square metres and on a dull grey winter day will produce about 6 KwHours over the short day. In bright sun in the summenr it will produce around 280KwHours in a day. Assuming panels with a standard efficiency I will get 13.1% return. Way, way better that an ISA and would even finance a bank loan.

I will recover all my investment in less than 5 years and in pocket from then on. In fact, these estimates are based on fuel costs rising at 6.5%. If only!!!!Each year for several years it has been over 10%. That being the case I'd have ALL my money back in just 3 years.

SCC want to get this one right. Not only the first in Sheffield, it seems that I might be the first council tenant in the country to be given permission. Hence the modest delay because they will want to brag about this.....and both they and I want to get things just right.....

[maxmaximus]

That would give me a return on my investment of 7.9%. My ISA comes nowhere near that!!!!

 

Have you allowed for the fact that your solar panels will be depreciating in value and will eventually be worthless.

 

I've just done a quick calculation using £6000 as your investment.

 

Assuming base rate stays the same and your best ISA is only 2% for 25 years, which is unlikely because interest rates will rise at some point. Your £6000 will be worth £9,888.21.

 

Assuming you do get a return from your panels of 7.9% and your investment was £6000 and you invest the money you make in a 2% ISA you will have £15,189.30 and some 25 year old panels that may need removing.

 

Making you a gross profit of £5301 over 25 years, if interest rates rise your profits will be lower, if you are borrowing money to buy the panels your profits will be lower, you may have to insure the panels, if they fail after the guarantee period your will have to pay for them to be repaired and are you going to stay in your council house for 25 years.

 

 

According to this site, http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Generating-energy/Getting-money-back/Solar-Energy-Calculator a south facing 4KW system can generate an annual income of £711 which is a total of £14,075 over the life of the panels.

Edited July 24, 2013 by maxmaximus

[whtara]

Thanks for your comment. However, the installers (and energysavingtrust) all use conservative figures,The installer's reason for this is that if they guarantee output over a 25 year period (and taking into account reducing efficiency which typically starts off at 90%+ and drops to around 75% after 25 years) they quote the lower figure from the outset. I am taking my own calculations from the solar energy readings provided from a Met Office station just 200 metres away) and applying a reducing efficiency over the period I will get some 13.1% in year one.

My ISA yields 2.3% I agree that interest rates can go up but they are not expected to rise rapidly over the next few years.

The FIT element of the income is linked to RPI and will creep up a little. However, assuming that fuel rises 10%+ as it has for each of the past 4 years or more then my return on fuel saving and on the price of fuel fed back into the system my return next year will rise to 14.9%. If the same were to happen in 2015 then my return would become 16.8% and by year 5 it would be around 23%.

Technology has improved in recent years. The new "micro" inverters avoid the previous problem of the output only being as good as the weakest panel. They also have the advantage of being much longer living. So my first quotation included an underwritten 20 year guarantee on both the system and also on the roof underneath. The second quote didn't cover the roof underneath but they are now talking to their underwriters to see if they can match the roof guarantee. Life expectancy of these new technology inverters suffers the same problem as uPVC window frames. Not enough have yet failed to give a realistic time for mtbf (mean time before failure) but in theory could be measured in hundreds of years but even if way less than that it is something for the distant future.

It was SCC heating engineers who advised me on "dual micro inverters" and they are also keeping a very close eye on both the paperwork and the technology - but they are helping me look for solutions rather than problems.

Back to arithmetic (and I happen to be a retired Inspector of Taxes so do know a bit about monetary matters) over the first 3 years my return will be £2950 - all of which will be put back into an ISA taking what is on offer. That of course would return an additional £60 a year. If fuel rises at more than 10% (highly likely since my current fixed rate tariff will be 12.7% higher when it expires) and if there is the usual round of increases this autumn that will likely reach perhaps 25%. What that means in reality is that my fuel savings would increase by 50% of the raise in fuel prices (I.E. 12.5%) and my FIT would rise in line with RPI. If fuel does rise this autumn by the same amount as the past 4 years then my first 3 years savings would be noticeably higher. All calculations are based on fuel prices at September 2012. The next round of rises has already happened and there will be another rise this autumn. If they can actually squeeze 13.5 square metres onto the roof then the additional price would be under £1000 and the overall returns would all be 35% higher. Not everything will necessarily go right but if it did all work out then my outlay would be recovered in 3 years 8 months.

The quoting firms are acutely aware that if this all goes right then it will enable ALL council tenants (not just Sheffield) to follow the same path. So the firms, me and the council's engineers and lawyers are pulling out all the stops.

Finally, the council are also considering asking for a change to primary legislation. Some 35 years ago, some tenant, somewhere, fought a similar battle over improvements to council houses and the "Right to Improve" came into being. So a tenant who (with permission) makes a substantial improvement to the dwelling, then on vacating they receive much of their outlay back. Solar Panels were not then available and so were not included in the legislation.

What has already been agreed is that were I to exercise my Right to Buy the Solar Array would be disregarded in the valuation.

But I did find your comments useful because it is likely that I, SCC and the installation companies have NOT necessarily realised all the implications and so I do invite back any and all comments because it is in everybody's interests to get this right first time.

Edited July 24, 2013 by whtara
minor typos

[Bonzo77]

They used to be a good investment, once upon a time. I think you got around 47p per KW back, or something like that. It's called the Feed In Tariff. Last time I checked, it had been reduced to 15p per KW and there were talks about it being reduced to 9p per KW.

 

I wish I'd had the money at the time!

[whtara]

You are absolutely right. The Feed In Tariffs (FIT) were being changed every 1 August. This year the government moved the goalposts and changed the date to 1 July, SCC lethargy meant I missed that date. The rate reduced.

Once you get the FIT dosh it remains static and increases with RPI. The sell back and fuel savings are connected to fuel price increases. This year the FIT is 14.7p per KwHour. But when fuel prices increase this autumn the fuel savings will increase. My original post had a typo....

The high summer harvest is not 280 KwHours per day. It is 200.

Yet councils missed a golden opportunity. The original FIT returns were phenomenal.

However, to put real figures here...the recent 12 day wall to wall blue sky would have pumped about 1 Megawatt into my system. Maybe next year?????

[iansheff]

I am sure I read it depends on the level of insulation as well now on the FIT rate.

[whtara]

Yup. You can not have a solar panel array (the in vogue name now is PV for photo voltaic) unless your home is reasonably thermally efficient. Under Decent Homes this became de rigeure. You need to attain level 4.0 to get a solar array.The decent homes standard is and was slightly higher. So all council houses (dare say there is the odd exception) will qualify because the Decent Homes Standard met and exceed this level. My own Victorian place (with non cavity walls) comes well inside the required standard. Pretty much all SCC council houses do.