Assuming Britain actually is a secular country- can it remain so?

[metaphoria 10]

If Britain is a secular state when Christians are the major religious body why should it no longer be secular if a new religion takes over as the major religious body?

 

Some religious bodies cannot tolerate secularism and their laws. Hobson's choice.

[BritPat 10]

If Britain is a secular state when Christians are the major religious body why should it no longer be secular if a new religion takes over as the major religious body?

 

Turkey is a muslim country, the great Nationalist Patriotic leader Kemal Attaturk charged the Army with maintaining the Constitution and keeping Government and Faith separate a state of affairs that has prevailed until today but could change soon.

 

Israel is a Jewish State, however, it is secular ! Israel embraces returning atheist Jews (a contradiction in terms?) Israel deems one to be Jewish by heritage not faith, it is a Racial State and not a Religious one.

[John X 10]

Know him personally do you.

 

I've no idea.

 

I can't see his face!

 

John X

[danot 10]

I'd agree it is double standards. They should, on the next demo, wear Hijab's that would be funny....

 

Which the police would also ask them to remove.

 

John x

 

Know him personally do you.

 

I've no idea.

 

I can't see his face!

 

John X

Which would under any other circumstances pose a security risk. Are you seeing the double standard yet?

 

Sit further back and squint your eye's, it'll magically appear.

[Frank Sidney 11]

Which the police would also ask them to remove.

 

John x

 

Funnily enough the police didn't ask this mob to remove their masks.

 

Can you see the double standards now Mr X?

 

 

You do attempt to defend the indefensible at times Mr X.

 

Because of this your arguments fall down. I don't believe if you saw a problem with a minority group you would openly admit it.

 

Therefore, your taken with a pinch of salt....

[Halibut 12]

The way you do when assuming that all none religious face concealers are contemplating criminal intent?

 

I don't - and how you arrived at such a bonkers idea from what I've said is beyond me.

[Halibut 12]

Then why was my son approached by police for wearing his hood up? We hardly ever see him with it down.. even when he's eating. Why can't the police respect his rights?

 

Could it be because he's not a muslim woman by any chance??

 

One can only speculate; perhaps he looked dodgy, perhaps his mates looked dodgy, perhaps he was suspected of having done something naughty.

[boyfriday 21]

Then why was my son approached by police for wearing his hood up? We hardly ever see him with it down.. even when he's eating. Why can't the police respect his rights?

 

Could it be because he's not a muslim woman by any chance??

 

Do you think a Muslim girl or boy wouldn't be asked to remove their hoodie either?

[danot 10]

I don't - and how you arrived at such a bonkers idea from what I've said is beyond me.

If you recall, I asked what the likely response of the police would be if I were to walk the streets dressed like phone-jacker and refuse any requests to remove the balaclava I was wearing.

 

The ensuing discussion went as follows-

 

Halibut[/b]: Refusing to co-operate with the police might well get you arrested I suppose, but Cyclone is quite correct in saying that it is not illegal to cover your face.]

 

You added-

 

Halibut[/b]:Are you suggesting that it should be illegal? I don't understand where you're coming from here.

 

danot[/b]: But I wouldn't be doing anything wrong by dressing like phone-jacker would I? So I shouldn't need to cooperate as the police have no reason to stop me.. do they?

 

I added in response to your 2nd question-

 

danot[/b]: Not necessarily illegal, but I don't see why any religious or cultural customs that someone might have should exempt them from compulsory legislative policies and security procedures.

 

Halibut[/b]: Not solely on the grounds of having your face covered no, of course not. They need to have reason to believe you were up yo no good.

 

danot[/b]: Then why do CPO's routinely stop the wearers of hoodies and goggle jackets if all they're doing is concealing their face?

 

Halibut[/b]: Because they think they're up to no goood.

 

danot[/b]: What reason is there to think that?

 

Halibut[/b]: Good grief, it's like wading through treacle with you sometimes... the reason they think that is that the people up to no good often try to conceal their identity. is that simple enough for you to grasp.

 

danot[/b]: I'm afraid it isn't Halibut. Your explanation only brings us back here.(referring to my earlier post)

 

Originally posted by danot

99.99% of us are never involved in knife crime, what's you point?

 

If carrying a knife or concealing your face in public places for none religious or cultural reasons is deemed criminal due to legislation that are in place simply as a precautionary measure because the UK government are unable to distinguish between the 00.01% that are routinely involved in knife related criminal activity and the 99.99% that are not, why isn't the same principle applied and the same precautionary measures enforced on those who do carry and conceal their faces in public places for religious and cultural purposes?

 

Halibut[/b]: You seem to be suggesting that people should be criminalized for having their face covered even if their is no intent to commit crime. Is that correct?

 

danot[/b]: No I'm not suggesting that at all.

 

OK, if I retracted the "criminal" from my previous post and replaced with 'suspect', would the point I'm making become clearer?

 

Halibut[/b]: You say that you want exemptions made for religious and cultural reasons to be removed, yes?

 

Then what you're saying means- for example- the Sikhs would be liable to be prosecuted for carrying their Kirpans. Therefore, you suggest that Sikhs should be criminalized for expressing their religious beliefs.

 

To which I replied (see post 645, it's to long to retype)

 

(You made the following post in response to another poster. <post 636>

 

Halibut[/b]:

The fact that some criminally minded people choose to cover their faces does not mean that all who cover their faces intend to commit crime.

 

To which I replied-

(Making reference to my earlier post- (99.99% of are never involved in knife crime, so what's your point?..... )

 

You see Halibut, You think it right that police automatically presume, rightly or wrongly, that people concealing their face for none religious or cultural reasons fit the criteria of the potential criminal, therefore, is probably up to no good, but you don't think it right for police to presume that of anyone concealing their face for religious or cultural reasons.

 

It's hypocritical Halibut.

[danot 10]

One can only speculate; perhaps he looked dodgy, perhaps his mates looked dodgy, perhaps he was suspected of having done something naughty.

 

Presumably because the type of face concealing garment he was wearing wasn't associated with religion or foreign culture?

 

Which begs the question- What if, hypothetically speaking, he had been wearing the Niqab , and the police were looking for him because he had been up to something dodgy. Do you think their suspicions would give them to reason approach the Niqab wearer(which is my son) and ask them to remove it?

[boyfriday 21]

Presumably because the type of face concealing garment he was wearing wasn't associated with religion or foreign culture?

 

Which begs the question- What if, hypothetically speaking, he had been wearing the Niqab , and the police were looking for him because he had been up to something dodgy. Do you think their suspicions would give them to reason approach the Niqab wearer(which is my son) and ask them to remove it?

 

Well presumably they'd be looking for someone wearing a niqab, so if he was still wearing it the outcome you imply is quite remote would be highly likely to happen..even in a city as big as Sheffield, someone wearing a niqab stands out like a sore thumb, it's not as if he would disappear into a sea of niqab wearers really.

[danot 10]

Do you think a Muslim girl or boy wouldn't be asked to remove their hoodie either?

No, I'm fairly certain the police would ask then to remove it. But this isn't the same as the police wouldn't be aware that they were of any particular culture or religion on first glance.