Todays educational standards

[Cavegirl]

There's far too much emphasis already, in my opinion, on the workplace in universities.

 

could be argued that, unless you're looking to go into academia, then this is what universities are for. as well as all the other stuff about lateral thinking etc, which you can, and should, learn in day to day life.

 

Universities were still described as academic institutions though last time I checked and not corporate indoctrination pens. If corporations want students with the appropriate abilities that badly they should set up and pay for the training and not force the costs of this onto their work force. A few grants here and there doesn't really cut it for me when the additional cost that society has to pay is the 'dumbing down' or shall we call it stream-lining of (the now semi-) state provided education to suit corporate needs.

[Kaimani]

Universities were still described as academic institutions though last time I checked and not corporate indoctrination pens. If corporations want students with the appropriate abilities that badly they should set up and pay for the training and not force the costs of this onto their work force. A few grants here and there doesn't really cut it for me when the additional cost that society has to pay is the 'dumbing down' or shall we call it stream-lining of (the now semi-) state provided education to suit corporate needs.

 

i hear what you're saying, C. and you have a point, to a point. whatever you decide to major in has to have relevance to whatever field you do decide to go into. and if it's work experience you need to do as one your modules then you do have to 'work' for a company tht does that.

 

courses differ, yes, i know, but most do need to have some sort of relevance to 'the real world'. a nurse needs to learn how to be a nurse, among other things. same for an engineer, a teacher, an accountant, a marketing executive etc. if you're doing philosophy, literature etc it's slightly different...but the bottom line still stands...the real world applications and knowledge need to be there. that you can't shy away from.

[Rushup]

Did you see the documentary last week presented by a media student?

 

There are highly qualified academics leaving academia due to the direct pressure to 'pass' students who should have 'fail' stamped firmly across their work. The reasons they are being given is the loss of tuition fees for the succeeding years of the course (failure year 1 will leave a 2 year deficit in revenue from fees)

 

This used to make me laugh at university. The quality of work from roughly a third of those on my course was terrible. I just could not fathom why my tutors were passing work of such low quality.

 

We would be introduced to design practitioners who would tell us tales of their degree courses 'back in the day', 20-30 in the 1st year whittled down to less than 10 who would graduate. The rest simply were not good enough, and failed.

 

Fast forward to now, and you're faced with a situation where there may be 100-150 people enrolled on the 1st year, and the only people who don't graduate are those who voluntarily drop out.

 

Now, has the standard of applicant intelligence and aptitude improved so much that everyone is capable of passing, or are universities under pressure to keep bums on seats for fees?

[venetodavid]

You don't think that young people are already well trained in writing each other short messages before they come to university?

 

I think some are and some aren't. Like anything else, there are appropriate and inapproapriate ways to write short messages. I'm always upsetting people, unintentionally perhaps because something gets lost in the form. I use email a lot at work with other countries and you really have to think about writing in a way that non-English mother tongue recipients can understand. Maybe you'd agree that just because young people are already well trained in speaking English to each other before they come to university, it doesn't necessarily mean they are good at it: some are and some need help.

 

Call me old fashioned, that's fine, but I thought that a degree was supposed to teach a person how to employ critical and lateral thinking, how to research and how to debate, understand and gain knowledge of the facts. There's far too much emphasis already, in my opinion, on the workplace in universities.

 

There are different ways of teaching critical and lateral thinking. The eCommunications Degree isn't just about forums and emails but longer pieces of work. I think it redresses the balance between essay and the trend for shorter more interactive forms of communication and expression. I agree that the emphasis on the workplace is a shame. I'd love to have gone to university for the love of knowledge, like people did just a few decades back; now I'm going because I want to get a decent job (with a contract and a pension and some paid holiday and sick pay, for example).

 

There are very few jobs out there that I can think of that require 3 years full time training in how to communicate through short messages before a person can begin to be a useful addition to the workplace. However, you'll never have the time or opportunity whilst at work to learn the research and debating skills that traditional essay writing offers.

 

I don't know of any course doing 3 years full time training through short messages. I'm just saying there ought to be a balance that reflects the real world in 2011. Actually, for me, the difficulty is writing short messages to the point rather than going into too much detail and boring people (like now).

[Obelix]

And now more people attained a better level of education and are able to question government policies. That will never do will it? Better get rid of them.

 

Yup we did. They questioned Govt policy, found it wanting and kicked them out last year in case you had forgotten....:-)

[Cavegirl]

i hear what you're saying, C. and you have a point, to a point. whatever you decide to major in has to have relevance to whatever field you do decide to go into. and if it's work experience you need to do as one your modules then you do have to 'work' for a company tht does that.

 

courses differ, yes, i know, but most do need to have some sort of relevance to 'the real world'. a nurse needs to learn how to be a nurse, among other things. same for an engineer, a teacher, an accountant, a marketing executive etc. if you're doing philosophy, literature etc it's slightly different...but the bottom line still stands...the real world applications and knowledge need to be there. that you can't shy away from.

 

I completely agree to a point- real world applications such as practical surveying for a geologist or architect, teaching software applications for an accountant or a designer, experience of patient care for a nurse- all these things are very important and very relevant, but to me it's all practical work and is something that should run parallel to academic study and essay writing.

 

My complaint is only that assessed essays are being replaced in many departments by short forum style messages. I just don't think that this learning tool requires the full range of skills that a traditional essay does. You don't need to read as much, you don't need to internalise all sides of the debate you're putting across and decide which you agree with, all that's actually required of you is that you have some sort of opinion on the forum title and can summarise it to some extent.

 

I really admire your posts they often get me thinking in depth about a subject and I believe that you're an intelligent person so I'm sure that you at least recognise where I'm coming from even if we have to agree to disagree this time.

[Cavegirl]

I think some are and some aren't. Like anything else, there are appropriate and inapproapriate ways to write short messages. I'm always upsetting people, unintentionally perhaps because something gets lost in the form. I use email a lot at work with other countries and you really have to think about writing in a way that non-English mother tongue recipients can understand. Maybe you'd agree that just because young people are already well trained in speaking English to each other before they come to university, it doesn't necessarily mean they are good at it: some are and some need help.

 

This is an important point. Academia is supposed to be reasoned and objective but when it's given over to pure opinion it really is devalued and results in an emotional rather than a rational response.

 

There are different ways of teaching critical and lateral thinking. The eCommunications Degree isn't just about forums and emails but longer pieces of work. I think it redresses the balance between essay and the trend for shorter more interactive forms of communication and expression. I agree that the emphasis on the workplace is a shame. I'd love to have gone to university for the love of knowledge, like people did just a few decades back; now I'm going because I want to get a decent job (with a contract and a pension and some paid holiday and sick pay, for example).

 

I feel really sad for you in a sense because I believe that you've been let down by the system by not getting the same well-rounded high standard of degree that previous generations have received. You're right it is a shame and right now standards seem only to be headed lower.

 

I don't know of any course doing 3 years full time training through short messages. I'm just saying there ought to be a balance that reflects the real world in 2011. Actually, for me, the difficulty is writing short messages to the point rather than going into too much detail and boring people (like now).

 

These are valid points, the courses I taught on were also a mix of forum writing and essay writing. Still I do wonder what the long term implications will be of a reduction in intensive study and a greater focus on rapid opinion forming when each current batch of new graduates hits the workforce.

[venetodavid]

My complaint is only that assessed essays are being replaced in many departments by short forum style messages. I just don't think that this learning tool requires the full range of skills that a traditional essay does. You don't need to read as much, you don't need to internalise all sides of the debate you're putting across and decide which you agree with, all that's actually required of you is that you have some sort of opinion on the forum title and can summarise it to some extent.

 

I live in Italy and they hardly seem to write essays at all. Exams are normally oral exams rather than 3 hour stints in the sports hall. There are pros and cons to this too. I think the oral exam is based on the idea that if you want to know how much a person knows about something, ask them some questions, give them the third degree on the spot and see how they deal with it. On the other hand, essay writing is as skill too.

 

In some ways, forum discussions are a bit of both. You can't just write anything on an assessed forum; you have to be able to back up what you're saying, show that you've considererd what other people are saying and where they are coming from and show that you do have a knowledge of what you are talking about. I think some people will find essays more difficult than forums; others will find having to respond to unexpected questions and challenges in the middle of making a point equally difficult.

 

Most Italian students learn their stuff by heart and can recite it at will, there are fewer reasoning skills involved. If you write a lot of essays, you learn how to do it. What I'm saying is that, perhaps rightly, there are formulas and conventions involved. Perhaps, that's the same with forums - learning to debate and discuss intelligently rather than just ranting and abusing. The more skills we learn the better - even the ones that are considered low-brow.

[venetodavid]

I feel really sad for you in a sense because I believe that you've been let down by the system by not getting the same well-rounded high standard of degree that previous generations have received.

 

If we're talking about being let down by the system, it isn't me you should feel sorry for. The system lets us all down to different degrees. And I don't think that one can become well-rounded thanks to a degree. To stick my neck out, I know a lot of people with degrees and they don't seem that well-rounded.

 

Indeed, most of my friends from previous generations describe their time at university as a blur of partying and watching daytime television not unlike The Young Ones. Only at the end of every year did they have to make a concentrated effort. That's not the case for all degrees, I'm sure...

 

Actually, a lot of them are surprised at how much work I have to do every week and how serious and concrete a lot of it is. Because I do it online, they keep saying I'm missing the "university experience" they enjoyed.

 

I can safely say that the skills I'm learning on the eCommunications degree are already useful in my job. I'm sure the final year at Sheffield Hallam will be more academic and involve more essay writing and research so I may yet end up well-rounded after all...