Police shot down suspected suicide bomber in London

[Fareast 10]

Carole K

 

I really apologise for assuming you came from America ! I think it's cos you post a lot like I do [and some other ex-pats] , at nights or early mornings , English time.

Also , I must add that I admire your fortitude , in sticking to your guns , despite all the negative responses you get.

I think most people do try to see all points of view , but I think , deep down , they divide governments up into 3 possible groups :---

 

a] Most governments are open , honest and would never tell a serious lie to the people they govern.

 

b] Most governments blunder along , make some mistakes and misjudgements , have some successes but try to cover up the mistakes by lying and cover-ups.

 

c] Most governments [particularly the current American and British governments ] are secretly controlled by a powerful group who are answerable to no-one and would do anything to obtain their aims.

Now , obviously , most people on S.F. belong to group 2 , I would say , a few to group 1 and yourself to group 3.

I honestly do not think that any government or power group in history would have the capability to organise anything as compex and widespread as what you're suggesting . There are too many people involved.

One event that I can think of that came near to being a genuine , political , international conspiracy was when Col. Nasser nationalised the Suez Canal. Britain and France concocted a plot with Israel that Israel would start a war with Egypt and Britain and France would invade Egypt to , "save " the Canal from damage !

Now I'm not sure how the whole thing got , "rumbled " [no reference books here ] but the Americans were furious and accused Britain of acting like a 19th. century colonial power and threatened us with economic penalties , so we , "cancelled " the invasion half way through !

The whole of the U.K. was in an uproar , as divided as at the time of the Miner's strike , Eden resigned , the Russians took the opportunity to crush the Hungarians because the world's eyes were on Suez--------in other words , a complete fiasco and ****-up.

Now , that's the way it usually is-----more Brooke Bond than James Bond.I'm not being sarcastic when I say that . I think a country that couldn't even organise a millennium celebration and get it right couldn't do anything right ------even acting as , "puppets " !

[sheffco 10]

Well!

The "suspected suicide bomber" (And that's the reason he was stopped" certainly got his 15 min's of fame!

Memorial service in Westminster Cathedral, near "State Funeral" in Brazil. World wide TV coverage, the whole works.

Some erstwhile Big Brother contestants would sell their souls for such publicity.

Apologising for a genuine mistake, coming out of the security alerts and conditions at the time, is one thing, but a whole Media driven Circus? - - - It's Pathetic!!!

[tulip 10]

Originally posted by CaroleK

I'll start REALLY worrying, tulip, when they start conscripting my sons into being bullets for their turf wars. Meanwhile I'm just keeping an eye on the f**kers. And so should you.

 

And no there's not much I can personally do about it, but en masse the people can do anything., Don't go lying down to die just yet, now will you.

 

There's always a motive to conspiracies, usually power, wealth and currently oil.

 

If you want to see a really GREAT collection of proven conspiracies then watch the History Channel. Even my mouth has dropped tothe floor with some of the things they've shown. Seems conspiracy is the bedrock of our history.

 

Hey, maybe thats why they've been covering them up?

 

If it gains our dear leaders/rulers more turf/oil/power/slaves they'll spend whatever it takes. And its usually OUR money, don't forget, the stuff they've leeched from we peasants/slaves at the bottom. Don't underestimate their ambitions.

 

Blair has to ask parliament??? (snigger!) Er no, tulip, he just gives them his usual: this is my judgement, now f**k off. Most of the cabinet weren't even let in to the decision process as regards the slaughter of Iraq, they were just told of the outcome of it.

 

Political bodies, military, police, FBI, CIA are all hierarchical structures. They haven't got a bloody CLUE what those above them are up to. They just undertake their orders. Getting off on their job status in the process.

 

The antidote to such structures is networks.

 

Like the internet.

 

And I'm not out to 'convince' anyone, I just wanna say what I think is going on. What you do with the info after that is down to you. Accept it, decline it as you will. Far better minds than mine will know what to do about it all.

 

... I f**king hope ...

 

And you might not have a life to get on with soon, tulip. The way these security measures are going you're gonna need a licence just to take a dump.

 

Start worrying tulip, for f**k's sake!

I don't like politicians any more than you, of course they lie, if they didn't tell us a bunch of bulldust then we wouldn't vote. They ARE actors in a way. They are merely figure heads though. There are many more behind the scences 'stage managers'. PM's are tutoured and taught how to act in front of an audience, that is us, the general public. Why do you think Michael Foot's labour party was never voted in? If Britain doesn't side with the US then what? Go it alone - you really would have to worry about your's and your children's future if that was the case.

 

I can understand you being upset but do you realize there was a much bigger threat when The USSR was a super power? I don't have a clue what age range you fall into but this isn't the biggest threat we have ever faced.

 

Would you rather live in a country were you were not allowed to speak freely or read books or wear make-up and shave your legs? Because, if you think this is all a Bush/Blair cover-up then dictatorships don't exist, countries like Afghanistan & Iraq are fictional. Just how far does it go?

 

One last question for you, if you are so worried about the world being taken over by conspirators, why did you have children? This is not a new world by your standards. You can't say you've only just realized what a terrible place this is unless you have been hiding in a make-believe world of your own.

 

I'm not going to spend the rest of my life worrying. You don't need to swear at me to get your point across Carole. If I die tomorrow, I will die knowing that I have helped people that I could help and done the best I could with my life. If huge countries can not stand up to Bush/Blair conspiracies then what hope do Sheffield forum users stand

 

Ps DON'T believe everything you see on the History Channel, a lot of it is nonsense, instead of watching stuff that upsets you go out and volunteer yourself for worthwhile causes

[CaroleK 10]

That's OK, Fareast. There's a rota for use of the net in my house and I can only get on after 12am, after my sons (13 + 16) have finished with it.

 

And thats a fairly accurate appraisal (a,b, and c) of the division of opinions out here.

 

Its those in the 'a' group who rile me up.

 

 

 

'If Britain doesn't side with the US then what? Go it alone - you really would have to worry about your's and your children's future if that was the case.' - tulip

 

Not sure I understand what you mean. Go it alone as in without US as an ally in future conflicts?

 

And yes, dictators have to be dealt with. But I don't understand, with all this high tech surveillance and weapons, why they couldn't have taken a crack squad out to Iraq and surgically removed Saddam and his entourage. I mean, its not as if they didn't know where he was or that they hadn't been keeping tags on him, for the previous ten years at least. Why annihilate the Iraqi people as well? Esp as they were already suffering from years of western imposed sanctions.

 

And the spat with USSR (I'm 46) was one of equals. Any nuclear attack would have also been a suicidal act. But f**king around with countries of vast populations - a good amount of which have been slyly mixed into western populations - who are so on the bottom they have abs nothing left to lose, just brings all the warring back to home shores. Which is why i think Saddam - who was once in the political bed with the West - was just the excuse to cause chaos.

 

 

Of course I wouldn't want to live in a country that didn't have our freedoms. And altho I defend these countries and their faiths it doesn't mean I don't have any beefs with them either. They just have to be alive for me to have it out with them. :)Their treatment of their women, their religious beliefs, the state that their people have to live in ... etc.

 

But we're not all that 'free' here in the West either. We have economic and material freedom, yes, but all those possessions are on the line the minute you break the myriad of laws that we have to follow, or fall foul of the myriad of government bodies we have to submit ourselves to. Our chains are more hidden, but they're def there.

 

 

 

'One last question for you, if you are so worried about the world being taken over by conspirators, why did you have children?'

 

Groups and individuals who have conspired against their own people for their own benefit have been with us since time began. They're nothing new.

 

And if I'd known 16 years ago that the beautiful sons I'd given birth to would be valued only as slaves/bullets/guinea pigs I would never have had them. But I didn't know this then. And it was hardly common knowledge to all of us women. You see, no babies = no slaves.

 

I only woke up to all this 4/5 years ago. I was as Hollywoodised as the rest of us.

 

And don't take my swearing personally, tulip. I'm working class and suffering. Expletives help - a lot.

 

 

 

'If I die tomorrow, I will die knowing that I have helped people that I could help and done the best I could with my life.'

 

I applaud you for that. I think I'm helping people also. Just a different arena.

 

I was a C.A. B. advisor for 8 years. I also worked for N.A.C.R.O. and the local Social Services. I've volunteered myself for enough causes. But I'm now concentrating on the real ROOT of all the problems I had to deal with.

 

And think again on the History Channel, tulip. I think its an excellent source of information. It would give any conspiracy site I know a run for its money.

 

Nice chatting with you.

 

 

 

(Erm ... now what was the damn thread about? JP will be after me. )

[tulip 10]

Originally posted by CaroleK

That's OK, Fareast. There's a rota for use of the net in my house and I can only get on after 12am, after my sons (13 + 16) have finished with it.

 

And thats a fairly accurate appraisal (a,b, and c) of the division of opinions out here.

 

Its those in the 'a' group who rile me up.

 

 

 

'If Britain doesn't side with the US then what? Go it alone - you really would have to worry about your's and your children's future if that was the case.' - tulip

 

Not sure I understand what you mean. Go it alone as in without US as an ally in future conflicts?

 

And yes, dictators have to be dealt with. But I don't understand, with all this high tech surveillance and weapons, why they couldn't have taken a crack squad out to Iraq and surgically removed Saddam and his entourage. I mean, its not as if they didn't know where he was or that they hadn't been keeping tags on him, for the previous ten years at least. Why annihilate the Iraqi people as well? Esp as they were already suffering from years of western imposed sanctions.

 

And the spat with USSR (I'm 46) was one of equals. Any nuclear attack would have also been a suicidal act. But f**king around with countries of vast populations - a good amount of which have been slyly mixed into western populations - who are so on the bottom they have abs nothing left to lose, just brings all the warring back to home shores. Which is why i think Saddam - who was once in the political bed with the West - was just the excuse to cause chaos.

 

 

Of course I wouldn't want to live in a country that didn't have our freedoms. And altho I defend these countries and their faiths it doesn't mean I don't have any beefs with them either. They just have to be alive for me to have it out with them. :)Their treatment of their women, their religious beliefs, the state that their people have to live in ... etc.

 

But we're not all that 'free' here in the West either. We have economic and material freedom, yes, but all those possessions are on the line the minute you break the myriad of laws that we have to follow, or fall foul of the myriad of government bodies we have to submit ourselves to. Our chains are more hidden, but they're def there.

 

 

 

'One last question for you, if you are so worried about the world being taken over by conspirators, why did you have children?'

 

Groups and individuals who have conspired against their own people for their own benefit have been with us since time began. They're nothing new.

 

And if I'd known 16 years ago that the beautiful sons I'd given birth to would be valued only as slaves/bullets/guinea pigs I would never have had them. But I didn't know this then. And it was hardly common knowledge to all of us women. You see, no babies = no slaves.

 

I only woke up to all this 4/5 years ago. I was as Hollywoodised as the rest of us.

 

And don't take my swearing personally, tulip. I'm working class and suffering. Expletives help - a lot.

 

 

 

'If I die tomorrow, I will die knowing that I have helped people that I could help and done the best I could with my life.'

 

I applaud you for that. I think I'm helping people also. Just a different arena.

 

I was a C.A. B. advisor for 8 years. I also worked for N.A.C.R.O. and the local Social Services. I've volunteered myself for enough causes. But I'm now concentrating on the real ROOT of all the problems I had to deal with.

 

And think again on the History Channel, tulip. I think its an excellent source of information. It would give any conspiracy site I know a run for its money.

 

Nice chatting with you.

 

 

 

(Erm ... now what was the damn thread about? JP will be after me. )

Well sorry Carole, I AGREE with just about everything you said there:o

 

I wasn't questioning your right to have children or your right to swear (as long as it's not directed at me!) I'm as working class as they come.

 

I do watch the history channel and yes there is some interesting stuff on there but some of it - well, I turn it off when they inform me of a new discovery by American scientists, that I know for a fact was discovered elsewhere years ago. I have to take everything else they say with a large dose of salt.

 

I can understand you being worked up about the madness in this world. I'm not trying to patronise you in any way what so ever Carole but don't pass anxieties on to your boys, I'm only saying this because my Mom passed her anxieties on to me and although I know they are her problem not mine there is not one day that goes by where my life isn't affected by this:|

 

The thread is about the wrongfully shot suspected terrorist. J.P don't tell us off, we are calming each others fears and worries - hopefully and I think this is relevant and sort of on topic:cool:

[sheffco 10]

Not wrongfully shot Tulip - - - mistakenly shot.

In the climate of suspicious behaviour, and wrongfully ignoring legitimate demands to stop, the man acted in a manner likely to label him as a possible suicide bomber.

Let's not get away from that Fact.

He was legally challenged and then legally stopped from carrying out what was taken to be a threat to public safety.

Unfortunate, but I hope the event will bring home to people the seriousness of trying to evade I.D. checks and bag searches, during the present crisis.

There have been postings on this thread by people who think it is best to run away from the police, for whatever reason, I can't imagine. Did it myself in my younger days on the manor.

Usually for scrumping someones apples or gooseberries, and once or twice for playing with fireworks. After growing up and working overseas, often in some of the places that being mentioned in the terrorist hunt and arrests, I have been exposed to the security forces of North African countries. Often Very Slipshod outfits. Patrolling airports with sub-machine guns - safety catch off - and finger on trigger. Once being accompanied by an armed escort who shot the roof out of the Toyota when I drove over a bump in the track.

I would like to think that our own forces are a cut above that, and if procedures were followed, I trust there will be no re-procussions for the unfortunate mistake.

[tulip 10]

Originally posted by sheffco

Not wrongfully shot Tulip - - - mistakenly shot.

In the climate of suspicious behaviour, and wrongfully ignoring legitimate demands to stop, the man acted in a manner likely to label him as a possible suicide bomber.

Let's not get away from that Fact.

He was legally challenged and then legally stopped from carrying out what was taken to be a threat to public safety.

Unfortunate, but I hope the event will bring home to people the seriousness of trying to evade I.D. checks and bag searches, during the present crisis.

There have been postings on this thread by people who think it is best to run away from the police, for whatever reason, I can't imagine. Did it myself in my younger days on the manor.

Usually for scrumping someones apples or gooseberries, and once or twice for playing with fireworks. After growing up and working overseas, often in some of the places that being mentioned in the terrorist hunt and arrests, I have been exposed to the security forces of North African countries. Often Very Slipshod outfits. Patrolling airports with sub-machine guns - safety catch off - and finger on trigger. Once being accompanied by an armed escort who shot the roof out of the Toyota when I drove over a bump in the track.

I would like to think that our own forces are a cut above that, and if procedures were followed, I trust there will be no re-procussions for the unfortunate mistake.

I'm sorry sheffco but I really did not know how to phrase that one! I thought about it for a long time. Should I say accidentally, mistakenly or wrongfully. With hindsight I should have said 'unfortunately' but can you appreciate, whichever way I phrased that, someone would have taken offence? Personally, I think the police did the only thing they could have done at the time.There were definitely no winners in that situations. I know the police aren't perfect but the bad apples would not have picked such a public place to murder someone just because they didn't have a white face! My god, in Brazil the police shoot vagrants on the street because they are considered vermin. I am grown up enough to realize Britain is not a brutal country or a police state. To be honest with you - I am not slagging the country I live in, it is the way it is for a reason - It took moving to the USA to realize what a free place the UK is. You know, people in England are not as badly off as they think (cringe, I KNOW I'm going to be attacked now) The British don't know how easy we have it:thumbsup:

[Greybeard 10]

Originally posted by sheffco

Not wrongfully shot Tulip - - - mistakenly shot.

In the climate of suspicious behaviour, and wrongfully ignoring legitimate demands to stop, the man acted in a manner likely to label him as a possible suicide bomber.

Let's not get away from that Fact.

He was legally challenged and then legally stopped from carrying out what was taken to be a threat to public safety.

Unfortunate, but I hope the event will bring home to people the seriousness of trying to evade I.D. checks and bag searches, during the present crisis.

 

The most unfortunate thing is that we don't know who to believe if in fact we can believe anybody. The police initially put out that the victim was one of the suspected bombers, - they later claimed he was merely connected with the attempted bombing., and finally admitted he was the 'unfortunate' victim of the 'shoot to kill' policy that the police have adopted, certainly without parliamentary and perhaps even without ministerial approval.

 

It now transpires that in certain circumstances there is no requirement that the police either challenge the suspect, or issue any kind of warning that he is about to be shot. All that is required is that a so-called 'Gold Commander' gives approval that the target be eliminated. I did point out way back in this thread that this was really the only logical way to proceed without alerting a potential bomber that he was under suspicion.

 

There have been reports that the victim was unaware he was a target until he was being ordered to 'lie down' as he was boarding the train. In the Times today, eye-witness reports suggest that the victim was in fact wearing an ordinary denim jacket and that he did not jump the ticket barrier. That he was running is nothing unusual, thousands of commuters have set off at a run if they hear a train approaching their platform, - I have done the same myself.

 

But as I said, we dont know who to believe. Hopefully the IPCC will be able to live up to it's independent status and reveal all the facts leading up to this man's death.

 

We just have to be very patient, - it will be several months.

[Tony 10]

Co-Admin:

 

If you want to discuss political conspiracies please start another thread on that topic.

 

This thread is now closed for pruning and maintainance.