Trinity - Should You Believe It?

[pinetree 10]

So this thread is about Trinity?

One can easily mistake it for a thread on xenophobia!

[Linesman 10]

Doubts can never be removed, with the old saying of those who believe no explanation is necessary and for those who don't no explanation will suffice.

Blind faith leads to blind logic and lack of judgement.

[plekhanov 10]

So this thread is about Trinity?

One can easily mistake it for a thread on xenophobia!

Only if 'one' like you doesn't know the definition of "xenophobia".

[pinetree 10]

Only if 'one' like you doesn't know the definition of "xenophobia".

 

If you don't know just google it.

Google is a good friend of the ignorant.

[plekhanov 10]

If you don't know just google it.

Google is a good friend of the ignorant.

For a while now this thread has primarily consisted of:

 

• Christians being hyper sceptical of Islam and ultra credulous of Christianity
  
• Muslims being hyper sceptical of Christianity and ultra credulous of Islam
  
• Atheists pointing out the amazing double standards of the believers.

None of which seems very "xenophobic" to me.

 

You obviously disagree so please explain what you imagine "xenophobia" to be and then demonstrate how this thread is about it.

[tab1 10]

No they have not, nor do his responses address many of the questions I raised, for example:

 

 

 

Could you please show me where I made such an allegation or retract the statement?

 

Me saying: You can't possibly verify the Koran hasn't been changed ≠ Changes have been made to the Koran.

 

Secondly, nor did Mamalocha's response come anywhere close to addressing my response to

 

 

 

'I never claimed it was, I asked why it hadn't been released since you said and I quote:

 

"The Muslim world is comfortable with the knowledge that no changes were allowed to be made to the text of the Qur'an, in fact the situation points to there being more scrutiny than ever to check and double check the correctness of the new form."

 

If they are that comfortable then why not release it?'

 

 

 

I'm not Grahame, secondly I find much of what Grahame posts to be vehemently detestable.

 

 

I'm not Grahame!

 

 

So what? I assume this is a response to something Grahame has posted? As it bears no relevance to anything I have.

 

Yet this claim can't be verified (which as been my whole point, before you accused me of making allegation of it been changed, which I am still waiting on you to show me where I made such a claim, or retract the statement) and it has been my point all along.

 

 

Can you now actually respond to the post please, especially seeing how you have levied such accusations against me, or retract them.

If it isn't your insinuation that the Qur'an has been changed then what is the reason for your expressing doubt? You seem to question the Qur'an and expect some sort of a decision on a basis of whole religion and at the same time pretend you didn't ask what what I understood you asking. The question on original copy has been answered and seems pointless you banging on about it.

 

The question of original copy has been answered.

 

Your assertion was

Originally Posted by f0rd

So not the original...

 

 

You mean the Uthman Koran. Here's the thing... it was commissioned 19 years after the death of Mohammad in 651 by the Caliph Uthman, so I don't see how it could have been authenticated by the prophet.

 

 

Which, no studies have been done on at all.

 

 

Still waiting on you to show me the first Koran... if you can't then there is no possible way you can make the claim the Koran remains unchanged.

And my response was this

The Qur'an was authenticated by the prophet, all the verses were there present but the order of these verses was changed later and not the substance. For Muslims to know this little fact is testimony to the open and transparent way this was done

To which you again doubted questioned the authenticity of the Qur'an. Now to me that is very much like saying the thing has been changed

You can make this claim all you want, if you don't have the first copy of the Koran, then you don't have anything to compare what we have now to it. So you can't actually verify it hasn't been changed. Come on, it's not a hard request, yet you and bazooka have obfuscated so much when asked for it.

 

 

 

 

 

Right then, where is the first Koran in order to make this check it hasn't been changed?

 

So even after saying the Qur'an was orally transmitted and no original existed you still demand one should be produced here for your convenience. I have answered you that the Muslim world who it matters to is quite happy with accepting the Qur'an as authentic, so your questioning of it is neither here nor there.

 

Now can we get away from Plek style of lengthy quote posts, it's getting boring.

[pinetree 10]

For a while now this thread has primarily consisted of:

 

• Christians being hyper sceptical of Islam and ultra credulous of Christianity
  
• Muslims being hyper sceptical of Christianity and ultra credulous of Islam
  
• Atheists pointing out the amazing double standards of the believers.

None of which seems very "xenophobic" to me.

 

You obviously disagree so please explain what you imagine "xenophobia" to be and then demonstrate how this thread is about it.

 

 

Google it!

My main point, which suitably has not registered:

Is the thread about Trinity and should we believe it?

[f0rd 10]

If it isn't your insinuation that the Qur'an has been changed then what is the reason for your expressing doubt?[/Quote]

I didn't express doubt, All I said is there is no possible way to verify the claim it hasn't been changed.

 

Now can you retract your statement where you say that I allege it has be claimed, or quote me ad verbatim where I have made such a remark.

 

You seem to question the Qur'an

I have done no such thing, furthermore you have still not shown me where I have said such a thing.

 

The point I have been making is that it is impossible to verify the Koran hasn't been changed.

 

and expect some sort of a decision on a basis of whole religion and at the same time pretend you didn't ask

Show me where I have question the Koran.

 

Seriously did you even read my response to Bazooka?

 

at what I understood you asking.

You're understanding of what I have written is simply wrong. As highlighted by the fact with you saying that made allegations the Koran has changed, which I am still waiting for you to show me where I made such a statement, if you can't can I ask you kindly to retract what you have posted!

 

The question on original copy has been answered and seems pointless you banging on about it.

Not really it hasn't.

 

The question of original copy has been answered.

Again see above.

 

Your assertion was And my response was this

To which you again doubted questioned the authenticity of the Qur'an.

Again show me where I did such a thing. All I did was challenge the notion that it is possible to verify the Koran hasn't been changed!

Now to me that is very much like saying the thing has been changed

Well it isn't

 

So even after saying the Qur'an was orally transmitted and no original existed you still demand one should be produced here for your convenience.[/Quote]

Here's the issue, I wasn't told it was orally transmitted. I was told the original written Koran as authorized by Mohammad was in existence... Don't believe me... Go read Bazooka's post.

I have answered you that the Muslim world who it ,matters to is quite happy with accepting the Qur'an as authentic, so your questioning of it is neither here nor there.

Right, and this had no bearing on what I said or my point.

 

Try actually reading what I write.

 

Now can we get away from Plek style of lengthy quote posts, it's getting boring.

I'd rather not, seeing how I can address posts in detail, not skipping over bits like you have done, case in point see my original reply to you, you have not answered quite a few issues.

 

The main crux show me where I said, the Koran was changed. Quote me ad verbatim please or retract it.

Edited November 29, 2009 by f0rd

[plekhanov 10]

Google it!

I don't need to "google it" as unlike you I'm well aware of the definition of "xenophobic" which is why I'm challenging your bizarre misuse of the term.

 

My main point, which suitably has not registered:

Is the thread about Trinity and should we believe it?

It was a long time ago, like many threads over a thousand posts long the topic has drifted somewhat and it now seems to be largely Xians and Muslims each claiming their faith and holy book are best.

[tab1 10]

I didn't express doubt, All I said is there is no possible way to verify the claim it hasn't been changed.

 

Now can you retract your statement where you say that I allege it has be claimed, or quote me ad verbatim where I have made such a remark.

 

 

I have done no such thing, furthermore you have still not shown me where I have said such a thing.

 

The point I have been making is that it is impossible to verify the Koran hasn't been changed.

 

 

Show me where I have question the Koran.

 

Seriously did you even read my response to Bazooka?

 

 

You're understanding of what I have written is simply wrong. As highlighted by the fact with you saying that made allegations the Koran has changed, which I am still waiting for you to show me where I made such a statement, if you can't can I ask you kindly to retract what you have posted!

 

 

Not really it hasn't.

 

 

Again see above.

 

 

Again show me where I did such a thing. All I did was challenge the notion that it is possible to verify the Koran hasn't been changed!

 

Well it isn't

 

 

Here's the issue, I wasn't told it was orally transmitted. I was told the original written Koran as authorized by Mohammad was in existence... Don't believe me... Go read Bazooka's post.

 

Right, and this had no bearing on what I said or my point.

 

Try actually reading what I write.

 

 

I'd rather not, seeing how I can address posts in detail, not skipping over bits like you have done, case in point see my original reply to you, you have not answered quite a few issues.

 

The main crux show me where I said, the Koran was changed. Quote me ad verbatim please or retract it.

All your rellevant posts have been quoted above and even though you now claim you are not expressing doubt, but the above my last post to you clearly shows you questioning autheticity of the Qur'an. If you weren't expressing doubt then why demand proof of authenticity, and why the continual long posts?

[pinetree 10]

All your rellevant posts have been quoted above and even though you now claim you are not expressing doubt, but the above my last post to you clearly shows you questioning autheticity of the Qur'an. If you weren't expressing doubt then why demand proof of authenticity, and why the continual long posts?

 

Well said!

The long posts are to baffle you, as they say "bull...t baffles":hihi:

[f0rd 10]

All your rellevant posts have been quoted above and even though you now claim you are not expressing doubt, but the above my last post to you clearly shows you questioning autheticity of the Qur'an. If you weren't expressing doubt then why demand proof of authenticity,[/Quote]

So that's a no you can't show where I claimed the Koran has changed, something I am still waiting for you today.

 

and why the continual long posts?

I like to be comprehensive, and actually address the points people raise.