unbeliever

It's nonsense. Even if they won in 2020, by the end of their term in 2025 the value of their £10 minimum wage would be comparable to the current living wage. They've promised nothing.

I don't know. Why do you ask? Who are you anyway?

Not enough. Don't trust it. They've been telling us the same things for as long as I can remember.

My bold: I do this to counter claims that the referendum was invalid on the basis of leavers' dishonesty. I agree with your other points.

What part of operating a successful trading bloc, requires the harmonisation of law on this matter?

I condemned that claim at the time. Not my deceit, but I spoke out against it anyway. Will you condemn your own deceit?

Still no apology for the lie I see. Instead a rather obvious false choice. Apparently calling somebody out for lying is crying now. Just digging deeper and deeper. Admit that you lied, acknowledge that you should not have done so (see I'm not even asking for an apology), and we can move on. ---------- Post added 10-04-2017 at 10:54 ---------- Far simpler really: Unrepentant liars often lie again.

Was anybody on this forum directly responsible for that deceitful claim?

Somebody should check this quote to make sure that it's real. Don't believe it unless you verify it yourself and place it in the proper context.

I don't have to justify anything. I'm not the one just caught out lying. This is pointless. Without basic respect for honesty no debate with you can serve any purpose. This is the bit where you pretend that I'm refusing to debate you because (contrary to all appearances) you assert that you're winning; rather than the reality which is that your display of dishonesty makes it impractical.

So you expect to be allowed to lie and then deny you lied and then carry on as if nothing happened. Anything you might say now is suspect. If you'd done a mea culpa that would be one thing but you still defend what you said.

No I overreacted. Been spending too much time recently dealing with people who are not remotely reasonable in these debates. Shouldn't have taken it out on you. My bad.

Yes. Thank you. I get rather overwrought dealing with people who can't disagree within the conventions of civilised debate. ---------- Post added 10-04-2017 at 10:14 ---------- That's pathetic. Not even an apology for falsifying a quote.

This is the actual quote of what Churchill said This is what he actually said. Which you can read here in the official record of what people say in parliament. It's called Hansard. http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1947/nov/11/parliament-bill To seek perpetuate a lie in the presence of such complete and total proof that it is a lie is quite ridiculous.

Yes. But I won't deny that starting out by calling me naive tends to affect my interpretation.

Okay this is going to have me laughing for a while. What Churchill actually said this He said it in the Commons on 11 November 1947. Here is a link to the hansard record of the matter: http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1947/nov/11/parliament-bill Your partial quote has completely reversed the meaning. This kind of casual dishonesty is what makes these debates such hard work.

There's plenty of oil available from Canada and various other places these days. When a post starts out by calling me naive, I can be reasonably confident that a conspiracy theory will follow, backed up by as little evidence as possible.

¿ Illuminati confirmed ¿

The EEC was founded in 1957 (treaty of Rome) before Margaret Thatcher became an MP. The UK's entry into the EEC was under Edward Heath in 1972. The EU was established in 1993 (Maastrict treaty) as an evolution of the EEC, after Margaret Thatcher had ceased to be an MP. So... Just no. ---------- Post added 09-04-2017 at 16:41 ---------- Okay. Well I'm not interested in debating based on such a ridiculous and bigoted premise. So have fun.

So anybody who is not whole-heartedly in favour of banning the burqa and the niqab is pro-terrorist are they? I really don't think I need to defend pro-Brexiters from allegations of irrationality or intolerance any more. Thanks for that.

If you say so mate. One of your guys above says that I'm pro-terrorist because I'm in 2 minds about the burqa ban.

See this I1L2T3, L00b, tzilstra ? I supposedly pro-terrorist for seeing both sides of the burqa ban. Still sure you're on the side of the intellectuals?

These contentious claims were discussed at grant length in public and in the media in the run up to the vote. At least you acknowledge that you lose the democratic vote of the people. If anything was a violation of the fairness of the vote it was the taxpayer funded pro-remain propaganda distributed to every home in the UK by the remain-supporting government; just before purdah. Defend that. Where's our justice for that?

The problem with collectivism is that it drags everybody along with the majority when there's really no need. This has been exacerbated by EMU as in a desperate attempt to keep that ridiculous project on life-support, decisions are inevitably made for the majority-holding €-bloc which are not necessary or in any way good for the UK. And even if I did think that collectivism was the way forward, I would not support EU because there is too much power too far removed from the democratic process. Once again. I don't expect to persuade you but I fight for acknowledgement of a few things: 1. I'm not ignorant, I just reach a different conclusion. 2. My side is not made up of bigots any more than yours is made up of traitors. 3. The EU needs a fair amount of work on its decision making process. Above all, I seek recognition that democracy must prevail even when a more "effective" option seems to be available. Reading even a little history will reassure you of this.

I like secular multiculturalism and I am not remotely interested in protecting institutional Christianity. I don't think that the problem of a minority of Muslims who are Islamists and are therefore not compatible with secular multiculturalism can be corrected by introducing Christians with similar problems. Oh yes and China is doing very well and that's truly wonderful.