[PaliRichard]

Originally Posted by pininsho

Amazing that you have time to write all that but not to do a google search to find these which took me a few seconds.
http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2009/0...sea-flood.html
http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/...ian/gilgamesh/

I'm a fast typer

[janie48]

Originally Posted by pininsho

Oh definitely me darlin'!

You sound a bit like David Cameron, talking to Angela Eagle (can't think why the poor man was accused of being sexist)

Notice my signature.

[pininsho]

Originally Posted by janie48

Notice my signature.

Yes. I look at it every time you make a comment and wonder why you don't take the advice.

[janie48]

Originally Posted by pininsho

Yes. I look at it every time you make a comment and wonder why you don't take the advice.

Ah well, there's a reason i changed it.Its there to remind me of how i should behave,I think i've done rather well, all things considered.

[janie48]

Originally Posted by Tony

And please, lets keep this respectful to others

Its a shame that not everyone took your advice,isn't it?

[pininsho]

Originally Posted by janie48

Ah well, there's a reason i changed it.Its there to remind me of how i should behave,I think i've done rather well, all things considered.

You're doing fine dear, keeping those emotions under control. I'm very proud of you.

[Ryedo40]

Originally Posted by janie48

Yes well i might have to go underground later perhaps

Especially if they start burning bibles and torturing us like the atheists goverments in North Korea,and like Romania and China were doing until recently.Although i'm not sure whether China has changed that much?

Janie, Christianity in China was pretty much seen as Islam is in the UK: a foreign threat to Western politics and culture. Problems with Christianity in China stem back as far as the Opium Wars: when our Christian government forced China to open its ports to Opium(a forbidden narcotic in China) and Christian missionaries; who rejoiced that the trade had opened the gates to fresh converts.

History aside, Christians have hundreds of legal Churches throughout China, and are free to practise their faith. China is also the biggest producer of Bibles in the world.

What they aren't allowed to do is create illegal Churches (mostly influenced by the crazy faith-healing evangelical types from places like the US) in their basements where people can be exploited. They also aren't allowed to undermine the Chinese government and its laws.

When you are hearing stories of Christians being persecuted in China, it's not because they believe in a god - and it's not necessarily because they are Christians. It's because they are breaking the law and screaming persecution when they get caught.

[denlin]

Originally Posted by janie48

Well if you want to go that far back,you could even go back to the time of Henry V111 and include other monarchs and the the Cromwell period.The Irish had always rebelled against the control of the Ruling classes,and Sovereign power.
The grievances in the last century were nothing to do with religion,they were to do with politics.The religious label was just an identification mark, many of the early IRA leaders were Protestants living in the South of Ireland.

The troubles in Ireland were started around the time of the usurping of James II by William of Orange and James' daughter Mary II not Cromwell and definitely not Henry VIII who persecuted Catholics over here but again religion based

[Chris_Sleeps]

Originally Posted by janie48

Well if you want to go that far back,you could even go back to the time of Henry V111 and include other monarchs and the the Cromwell period.The Irish had always rebelled against the control of the Ruling classes,and Sovereign power.

Power and religion have only recently been seperated in the west though. Cromwell was a religious despot, no doubt about it. That isn't to say that the history or politics of Ireland is purely about religion, but it is a sectarian divide based on church. It's also about nationalism, and class, and power, and in the 20th century there were people who still made it about religion again.

Blaming religion on Ireland is as complex as blaming Korea on atheism. Both ideas are far too shallow.

Originally Posted by denlin

The troubles in Ireland were started around the time of the usurping of James II by William of Orange

James I started it by giving land in Ulster to Scottish presbytarians. He was a Catholic king, ruling Anglican England and a Calvinist Scotland. He had to balance the desires of all religions, and his son was so bad at the task that he lost his head.

You're wrong with Cromwell though. He was awful to the irish.

[JFKvsNixon]

Originally Posted by Chris_Sleeps

You're wrong with Cromwell though. He was awful to the irish.

In Tony Blair's biography he says that the Irish PM refused to have a meeting with him in Downing Street until they took down Cromwell's painting from the wall of the room they were having the meeting in.

[janie48]

Originally Posted by Ryedo40

Janie, Christianity in China was pretty much seen as Islam is in the UK: a foreign threat to Western politics and culture. Problems with Christianity in China stem back as far as the Opium Wars: when our Christian government forced China to open its ports to Opium(a forbidden narcotic in China) and Christian missionaries; who rejoiced that the trade had opened the gates to fresh converts.

History aside, Christians have hundreds of legal Churches throughout China, and are free to practise their faith. China is also the biggest producer of Bibles in the world.

What they aren't allowed to do is create illegal Churches (mostly influenced by the crazy faith-healing evangelical types from places like the US) in their basements where people can be exploited. They also aren't allowed to undermine the Chinese government and its laws.

When you are hearing stories of Christians being persecuted in China, it's not because they believe in a god - and it's not necessarily because they are Christians. It's because they are breaking the law and screaming persecution when they get caught.

Yes China does have a complex History as all nations do.Colonialism has a lot to answer for! In more recent times though the Chinese goverment have had to adopt changes due to pressure from human rights groups and Amnesty International.They know they have no choice,if they want to trade with other nations.
The power of Mao Tse Tung has left its mark though.I'm not so sure we know everything thats going on there.

[janie48]

Originally Posted by denlin

The troubles in Ireland were started around the time of the usurping of James II by William of Orange and James' daughter Mary II not Cromwell and definitely not Henry VIII who persecuted Catholics over here but again religion based

I knew about the William of Orange period,and the battles, we are reminded of it when we see the Orange parades every year,which is a pity.
Have you ever spoken to any Southern Irish Catholics about their History,some of them seem to have more of a grudge against Henry the eighth and Cromwell then they do about William of Orange,for some reason.

[Snowbird]

Originally Posted by PaliRichard

Snowbird



I'm still quite busy so haven't got time to go searching for links but there will be plenty of them (I'm sure) if you'd care to have a look.

From what I recall from memory somewhere in the region of 7-8000 years ago a region near the black sea suffered a catastrophic flood due to melt waters from the retreat of a glacial ice sheet.

This is believed to have formed the basis of the Biblical flood (which itself is believed to be taken from the Gilgamesh epic, which was based on earlier poems from Sumeria)

This wasn't the only 'flood' of it's kind, around 10,000 years ago the Great lakes (on the Canada/US border) were formed in a similar fashion but both of these events were separate, isolated floods, not a world wide deluge that killed everything.

Regarding your ascertion that evidence of Biblical cities were real, that may be so but that in itself doesn't prove that everything in the Bible is true.

The Qur'an, the Upanishads and the Tripitaka also containg places that existed but to suggest this in itself proves that all the stories contained in them were true is a little bit of a stretch.

To put a modern twist on it does that mean that Eastenders is real because it's based in a real City?

I have to go now, sorry for being brief but I'm in a rush.

Google thge black sea flood though, and Gilgamesh, you may be suprised at the similarities in it with the Biblical flood.

I am not surprised, Thats pretty much my point-- So many references to a flood would kind of support the theory that it actually happened and that ths bible story is based on fact. --
I have repeatedly said that I do not believe all the stories in the bible are true so your Eastenders reference is irrelevant! Why are you preaching to the converted?

[Bloomdido]

Originally Posted by Snowbird

I am not surprised, Thats pretty much my point-- So many references to a flood would kind of support the theory that it actually happened and that ths bible story is based on fact. --
I have repeatedly said that I do not believe all the stories in the bible are true so your Eastenders reference is irrelevant! Why are you preaching to the converted?

Have you read the Epic of Gilgamesh? The flood happened. It is documented. If you choose to believe that your god wiped out every living thing because he was having a hissy fit and then gave us rainbows to say sorry, then just keep away from me.

[PaliRichard]

Originally Posted by Bloomdido

Have you read the Epic of Gilgamesh? The flood happened. It is documented. If you choose to believe that your god wiped out every living thing because he was having a hissy fit and then gave us rainbows to say sorry, then just keep away from me.

He didn't. He gave us rainbows to remind himself not to do it again, which seems to suggest that the Abrahamic God is prone to forgetfulness.

[PaliRichard]

Originally Posted by Snowbird

I am not surprised, Thats pretty much my point-- So many references to a flood would kind of support the theory that it actually happened and that ths bible story is based on fact. --
I have repeatedly said that I do not believe all the stories in the bible are true so your Eastenders reference is irrelevant! Why are you preaching to the converted?

Sorry, I didn't realise that was your position, my apologies.

I disagree that it means that it lends credance to the Biblical account though.

Firstly it wasn't a world wide flood so the moral of the Bible story is somewhat irrelevant.

Secondly if you acknowledge it is based on an earlier story isn't it also true that other Biblical episodes could also be 'borrowed'? If this is the case how do you seperate what you are told in the Bible from what could easily be stylized or fictional stories?

How, in other words, does the believer distinguish between the fact and the fiction of the Bible?

I'm not taking the Mic btw, I'm genuinely interested.

[Chris_Sleeps]

Originally Posted by janie48

Have you ever spoken to any Southern Irish Catholics [...] some of them seem to have more of a grudge against Henry the eighth

Why do they have a grudge against Henry VIII?

[MrSmith]

Originally Posted by PaliRichard

Sorry, I didn't realise that was your position, my apologies.

I disagree that it means that it lends credance to the Biblical account though.

Firstly it wasn't a world wide flood so the moral of the Bible story is somewhat irrelevant.

Secondly if you acknowledge it is based on an earlier story isn't it also true that other Biblical episodes could also be 'borrowed'? If this is the case how do you seperate what you are told in the Bible from what could easily be stylized or fictional stories?

How, in other words, does the believer distinguish between the fact and the fiction of the Bible?

I'm not taking the Mic btw, I'm genuinely interested.

Have a read of this, it explains everything and is easy to understand.

Noah’s Ark and the Global Flood
Contrary to popular belief, Noah’s Ark was not a little boat. Noah’s Ark was an enormous boat with plenty of room for all the animals..

Creationist believe that the fossil record is a record of a worldwide flood.

Floods do a lot of damage. A worldwide flood would bury all the animals not on the ark. At the time of the flood, the Bible says that the fountains of the deep burst open. This means that water and mud spewed forcefully out of the ground. Creationists believe that this action is what caused the mid-Atlantic ridge and the shapes of the continents. The water whooshing back and forth with the tides for a year would create layers of sediment of different densities.

What Did The Carnivores On The Ark Eat?

There were no carnivores on the ark. All living things were vegetarian until after the flood. After the initial creation God said this:

How Did All the Animals Fit on Noah’s Ark?

You might ask: “aren’t there too many kinds of animals for them to all fit on the ark?” No, there are not too really that many kinds of animals. God created the basic types of plants and animals, and then genetic variation went on from there since the flood.

I find incredible that someone could actually believe it.

[denlin]

Originally Posted by janie48

I knew about the William of Orange period,and the battles, we are reminded of it when we see the Orange parades every year,which is a pity.
Have you ever spoken to any Southern Irish Catholics about their History,some of them seem to have more of a grudge against Henry the eighth and Cromwell then they do about William of Orange,for some reason.

Probably because they never went to school - Henry VIII was dead 50 years before Cromwell was born

[quisquose]

Originally Posted by Chris_Sleeps

Blaming religion on Ireland is as complex as blaming Korea on atheism. Both ideas are far too shallow.

If you had said "blaming theism on Ireland is as complex as blaming Korea on atheism, both ideas are far too shallow" then I would agree.

Theism and atheism are both simple positions with respect to a single question, and both are not enough to motivate actions.

Religion is more than just theism though. It claims to know the mind of God, or some equivalent force, and what he/it wants us to do. It does motivate behaviour, and it does create sectarian divides.

There is no equivalent that arises from not believing in god.