Christian fundamentalists

[Grahame 10]

"God" allegedly told Bush to wage war on "Eye-raq"...

 

If it were us mere mortals spouting ideas like that, rather than the president of the USA, we'd have been locked up in a psychiatric ward.

 

Thank you PT, I am glad you said "allegedly" by the way. This is the one thing Jobee is right about, people make up their own Gods in their own mind they have done for thousands of years, the Israelites turned God into a God of war, and the prophets constantly warned the people about the consequences of their actions and they were right, and because of that and other man-made gods look at the reputation he has gained because of it.

[obase 10]

When was the last time a church near you declared war on another nation?

 

Did you watch "Undercover Mosque?" Some british citizens there seemed to be declaring war on their own country.

 

Of course a church is just a building, or a group of people that might hold differing views about things. It doesn't constitute a nation in itself, but they do preach hatred against other churches, or groups of people. Athiests, homosexuals, doctors that perform abortions etc come in for a bit of stick. I've seen plenty of banners that proclaim "War on lesbians" or whatever. I have no doubt that if a nation was comprised totally of people from one of these groupings, some church somewhere would have declared war on it.

[Grahame 10]

Did you watch "Undercover Mosque?" Some british citizens there seemed to be declaring war on their own country.

 

Of course a church is just a building, or a group of people that might hold differing views about things. It doesn't constitute a nation in itself, but they do preach hatred against other churches, or groups of people. Athiests, homosexuals, doctors that perform abortions etc come in for a bit of stick. I've seen plenty of banners that proclaim "War on lesbians" or whatever. I have no doubt that if a nation was comprised totally of people from one of these groupings, some church somewhere would have declared war on it.

 

 

I seem to remember catching some of it.

 

Those things though are either illegal, or public order offences, or infringements of personal freedom and I know we are not our brothers keeper but Christian teaching is that we obey the law of the land and if people are doing these things then they shouldn't be. The only war I would be happy to be part of would be the "War on want."

[Little Buzz 10]

This is what the Bible says: -

 

2. God is all knowing (omniscient): Ps 139:1-6; Job 42:2; Acts 2:23; 1 Tim 1:17

 

3. God is all powerful (omnipotent): Gen 17:1; 35:11; Rom 13:1; 1 Tim 6:15; Rev 19:6

 

In discussions we've had before, Grahame, you have always discounted the entire Old Testament. Strange to see you quoting from it in your list, but as it is seemingly part of the bible again I'm sure you won't mind me quoting from it in future.

 

As ever I feel duty bound to point out that omnipotence and omniscience are logically incompatible - you can't be both. Omnipotence itself is logically impossible - it's the old question of can god make a rock he can't lift? If he can, he isn't omnipotent because he can't lift it, and if he can't he isn't because he can't make it.

 

When you combine the two you get into even more of a logical mess. TO quote Dawkins (to save me re-writing it)

 

it has not escaped the notice of logicians that omniscience and omnipotence are mutually incompatible. If God is omniscient, he must already know how he is going to intervene to change the course of history using his omnipotence. But that means he can't change his mind about his intervention, which means he is not omnipotent

 

6. God is immutable (unchangeable) in his nature: Mal 3:6

 

7. God is love: 1 Jn 4:8,16

 

10. God is merciful: Ps 103:8

 

11. God is gentle: Ps 18:35

 

13. God is good: Rom 2:4

 

14. God is perfect: Matthew 5:48

 

15. God is just: Isaiah 45:21

 

So we have an unchanging, loving, merciful, gentle god? So why did he spend much of the Old Testament slaughtering people, or commanding others to slaughter them, sending terrible plagues, flooding the earth, destroying cities and taunting poor old Job? And then in the New Testament he's quite nice, if you skip the bit about requiring his son to be slaughtered in order to forgive our wickedness, when presumably as an omnipotent being he could have forgiven us without anyone being nailed to anything.

 

Seems fairly changeable to me - and not especially loving, good or just.

[Grahame 10]

Read my reply to PT in post 1033 regarding man-made gods which is something Old Testament people did regularly.

 

And for the first part of your question, imagine someone has infinite knowledge and unlimited power, what’s the problem?

[jobee 10]

When was the last time a church near you declared war on another nation?

 

Dont come that Grahame, one of the churches members , Tony Blair,

declared illegal war on Iraq. Again religious men were up to their necks in war.

[Grahame 10]

Dont come that Grahame, one of the churches members , Tony Blair,

declared illegal war on Iraq. Again religious men were up to their necks in war.

 

What is the definition of "Christian" Jobee, see my signature and tell me if Blair fits the job description.

 

I will add a further definition of my own,

 

ALL the time do,

ALL the good you can to,

ALL the people you can.

 

.

[Pingpang 10]

 

Anyway I'm getting tired of listening to nonsense.

 

 

well put a sock in it then

[jobee 10]

What is the definition of "Christian" Jobee, see my signature and tell me if Blair fits the job description.

 

I will add a further definition of my own,

 

ALL the time do,

ALL the good you can to,

ALL the people you can.

 

.

 

Yes Grahame, more YAK,YAK, YAK. in 1618 -1648, the thirty years war in Northern Europe. Protestant and Catholic battered each other ceaslessly

untill there was nothing else to murder. That is the only reason the war stopped. Religious homo sapiens are just as violent as the other kind.

[Pingpang 10]

I really don't get this bit, Grahame! Sorry.... PT established for us that it was the Romans who crucified Jesus. Since the Fall of the Roman Empire, I don't think they're in charge of much these days. However, two biggies who are inndeed in charge of quite a lot (and are making a right mess of things) are Bush and Brown - both of whom are Christians, I believe.

 

So, who/what did you mean??

 

 

the roman empire never fell

 

it took over the original christian church and transformed into the the roman catholic church

[Pingpang 10]

, do not assume I don't have a mind of my own. I have always done my own thing as people who know me will testify. No one tells me anything, do you hear. All I can say is you don't know me very well.

 

lol yeah right

 

noone tells you anything

 

except the authors of the bible, eh?

 

dear me

[Little Buzz 10]

And for the first part of your question, imagine someone has infinite knowledge and unlimited power, what’s the problem?

 

A lot of thinkers would argue that it is impossible to have any real concept of infinity - the best we can manage is 'pretty impressively big'.

 

However, if I try and imagine someone with infinite knowledge and infinite power it raises the issue I highlighted in my last post.

 

Infinite knowledge implies that god knows everything that will ever happen.

Infinite power implies he can do anything he wants.

 

The two combines mean that he cannot change his mind about what he wants to do, or intervene in the world - which means he isn't omnipotent - because if he changes his mind he wouldn't have been omniscient.

 

On a more mundane level, and if we can ignore the whole 'logically impossible' angle - I have a problem with god using his omni-everything so irresponsibly - the flood and all subsequent natural disasters are just show-boating, and not intervening to stop us all massacring each other (and asking us to do it if the bible, Al quaeda and Dubya Bush are to be believed)

is not a great use of his powers in my opinion. Even stereotypically dumb models want world peace!

 

Can you explain how a god can be omnipotent, omniscient, or even both - and comment on how well you think the god you believe in is using his powers?