Violence to girls and women.

[Plain Talker]

 

It does not interest me whether they were Muslim or non-Muslim. I just report on extreme barbaric practices concerning women and girls. Example :- Policeman arrested for chopping off nose of his teenage wife, he married when she was only seven years old ( Pakistan)

 

Let me correct you there, as you obviously seem to be labouring under a very weighty misconception here...

 

No, you aren't reporting on "extreme barbaric practices concerning women and girls" you are reporting (with no little glee, I might add!) solely on "extreme barbaric practices concerning women and girls, perpetrated by Muslims, and quite pointedly ignoring similar violence recorded as perpetrated by non-muslims".

 

Let's get that fact straight, before we continue this "debate" (* for "debate", read "one-sided rant from yourself"*)

Edited June 13, 2014 by Plain Talker
fouled-up quotes from Longleyman

[Guest]

Let me correct you there, as you obviously seem to be labouring under a very weighty misconception here...

 

No, you aren't reporting on "extreme barbaric practices concerning women and girls" you are reporting (with no little glee, I might add!) solely on "extreme barbaric practices concerning women and girls, perpetrated by Muslims, and quite pointedly ignoring similar violence recorded as perpetrated by non-muslims".

 

Let's get that fact straight, before we continue this "debate" (* for "debate", read "one-sided rant from yourself"*)

 

Instances of western non religious extreme barbaric practices concerning women are rare, individual, isolated cases, whereas it does appear to be in the African, Indian and Muslim culture in Africa, India and the Arab world.

[longleyman]

Let me correct you there, as you obviously seem to be labouring under a very weighty misconception here...

 

No, you aren't reporting on "extreme barbaric practices concerning women and girls" you are reporting (with no little glee, I might add!) solely on "extreme barbaric practices concerning women and girls, perpetrated by Muslims, and quite pointedly ignoring similar violence recorded as perpetrated by non-muslims".

 

Let's get that fact straight, before we continue this "debate" (* for "debate", read "one-sided rant from yourself"*)

 

Calm down, dear.

[Carmen.]

So many young women are raped by friends of their family.

Afraid to tell parent/parents in case they are not believed.

Told many times.

[Halibut]

Instances of western non religious extreme barbaric practices concerning women are rare, individual, isolated cases, whereas it does appear to be in the African, Indian and Muslim culture in Africa, India and the Arab world.

 

No they aren't. They're widespread and common.

[Bounce]

Infanticide can be killing of boys or girls. Female infanticide is the selective killing of girls. When drawing the comparison between India and Pakistan I was talking about Female infanticide which is why your point is meaningless.

 

Just out of interest what are your beliefs?

 

I'm Muslim

 

---------- Post added 14-06-2014 at 14:55 ----------

 

My beliefs are that it is very unlikiley that God exists and even more unlikely that a God spoke to Mohammad, or anyone else for that matter. In the unlikely event that a God does exist and as done the things which are claimed, then it is a very unpleasant entity and unworthy or worship.

 

How can it be very unlikely? The birds in flight, the tiny insects with their own brains, the human beings, elephants, giraffes, the oceans, mountains, forests ect. The many fruits and vegetables of distinct colours, tastes and smells with their own special rapping. We struggle to create a robot and yet far more advanced beings are already on the earth. To say the creator does not exist is like saying the earth doesn't exist. What you're doing is denying the reality of what is in front of your very eyes. Why is it an unpleasant entity even the air you breath is a blessing from Allah. Without it you would die instantly. Allah has provided for us food of many kinds without which you would die within days. Allah has provided us with water without which you can't survive. It's not that Allah is unworthy of worship it's more the case that you are ungrateful for what you've been given.

 

 

And despite that, your claim about Pakistan having more females than males is still wrong no matter which figures you choose to use.

 

All your claims are wrong, the figures you use are wrong even according to the source of the figures. Pakistan still has a lower male to female ratio than India no matter which figures your choose to use.

 

 

So your attitude is that it's OK for religious people to be violent because non religious people are violent. Do you condemn violence against women or do you support your Gods opinion that it is OK to to give them a slap if they disobey you.

 

No my attitude is that if Muslims are violent then you blame Islam but if Atheists are violent you never blame Atheism and when other religions are violent you don't blame their religion either, so what's the real agenda here?

 

---------- Post added 14-06-2014 at 15:43 ----------

 

This is an interesting case of violence towards women.

 

 

Totally unprovoked in broad daylight against a Muslim girl on her way to college by a Non Muslim male. Running up behind her and punching in the back of the head knocking her to the floor.

 

 

 

Another interesting case of violence towards women.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/jul/07/german-trial-hijab-murder-egypt

 

It was while Marwa el-Sherbini was in the dock recalling how the accused had insulted her for wearing the hijab after she asked him to let her son sit on a swing last summer, that the very same man strode across the Dresden courtroom and plunged a knife into her 18 times.

 

Her three-year-old son Mustafa was forced to watch as his mother slumped to the courtroom floor.

 

Even her husband Elvi Ali Okaz could do nothing as the 28-year-old Russian stock controller who was being sued for insult and abuse took the life of his pregnant wife. As Okaz ran to save her, he too was brought down, shot by a police officer who mistook him for the attacker. He is now in intensive care in a Dresden hospital.

 

 

 

Are these examples of how Non Muslims have been indoctrinated to hate Muslims and therefore commit unprovoked extreme violence against Muslim Women out of that hatred for Muslims?

Edited June 14, 2014 by Bounce

[daneha]

 

How can it be very unlikely? The birds in flight, the tiny insects with their own brains, the human beings, elephants, giraffes, the oceans, mountains, forests ect. The many fruits and vegetables of distinct colours, tastes and smells with their own special rapping. We struggle to create a robot and yet far more advanced beings are already on the earth.

What about them, the fact they exist is proof they exist, not proof they were created.

 

 

 

To say the creator does not exist is like saying the earth doesn't exist.

No it isn't, everything that exists can exist without an imaginary creator.

 

What you're doing is denying the reality of what is in front of your very eyes.

No I am not, the realty is that they exist, and it is very unlikely that they were created by a God.

 

 

Why is it an unpleasant entity even the air you breath is a blessing from Allah.

No it isn't, but lets assume it is, why would Allah make it possible for a human lung to fail thereby depriving one of its creation the ability to breath.

 

 

Without it you would die instantly.

Thats not proof that a God exists, its proof that we evolved to need air.

 

Allah has provided for us food of many kinds without which you would die within days.

Again that just proof that animal evolved to take advantage of the available vegetation and that some vegetation fought back by becoming toxic to some animals.

 

Allah has provided us with water without which you can't survive.

The fact that water exists isn't proof that a God exists, its just proof that we evolved with the need to consume water.

 

It's not that Allah is unworthy of worship it's more the case that you are ungrateful for what you've been given.

Assuming that Allah does exist it is also directly responsible for the early deaths of billions of people. A caring God would make sure all animals had access to the things they need to enjoy life.

 

 

 

All your claims are wrong, the figures you use are wrong even according to the source of the figures. Pakistan still has a lower male to female ratio than India no matter which figures your choose to use.

That wasn't your claimed, you claimed there were fewer males that females, and all the data says that you was wrong.

 

 

 

No my attitude is that if Muslims are violent then you blame Islam but if Atheists are violent you never blame Atheism and when other religions are violent you don't blame their religion either, so what's the real agenda here?

 

There isn't an atheist hand book which instructs atheists to be violent, there is however and book which is claimed to be the word of God which does instruct its believes to be violent.

 

---------- Post added 14-06-2014 at 16:05 ----------

 

This is an interesting case of violence towards women.

 

 

Totally unprovoked in broad daylight against a Muslim girl on her way to college by a Non Muslim male. Running up behind her and punching in the back of the head knocking her to the floor.

 

 

 

 

Did the God you worship create that human or was he created by a different God, and is your God all knowing and all powerful?

Edited June 14, 2014 by daneha

[Bounce]

I do not believe that is true.

 

Well you're obviously walking around with the blinkers on then. One only needs to look at the astronomical rates of violence towards women in western secular countries and daily news reports of such violence to see the reality of the situation.

 

I'd happily concede that judging Islam and the Quran from a modern liberal viewpoint is invalid if you concede that Islam and the Quran are not a good guide for living in a modern liberal world. If, however, you claim that Islam and the Quran are true for eternity and still just as relevant and perfect today as it was when it was first "revealed" then i will continue to judge it by modern liberal standards, and see no reason why I should not.

 

The laws and rules handed to human beings in the Quran are just as relevant today as they were in 7th century Arabia as the exact same problems still exist. From a western liberal viewpoint one is free to do as they like as long as they're not hurting anyone. Adultery causes severe hurt to the partner on the receiving end it causes severe hurt to children if any are involved, in many cases it breaks up the family and causes lasting psychological damage for the children once they grow up. Why then is Adultery legal? In Islam Adultery is outlawed. Alcohol causes drink fuelled violence, sexual assaults, is a strain on public healthcare, costs police resources time and effort. Why is Alcohol legal? In Islam Alcohol is outlawed. Sex before marriage has lead to many single mothers being left to bring up children on their own while the irresponsible father is no where to be seen. Some of these kids then grow up to join gangs and commit crime. Marriage joins two people together in responsibility with the intention of bringing up children together. Why is sex before marriage legal when the consequences show clearly how much damage is caused to society as a result? Islam outlaws sex before marriage.

 

How does this address my point? Yes some people, religious or not, may beat their wife if they perceive them to be (in the words of Baz) "rebellious, wicked, decietful/immoral" but surely having an actual verse in the most holy of texts that tells you to do it is a bad thing?

 

Having a verse actually prevents it because the verse doesn't say beat your wife as has already been pointed out here. The verse lays down several steps to take in such circumstances with lightly beating given as a last resort. Now lightly beating doesn't mean a slap in the face as has been claimed by Daneha it also doesn't mean a punch on the arm. Some scholars have argued it means throwing a pillow at the wife others have said taping her with a toothbrush is the meaning of lightly beating. If the verse wasn't there men would have continued to batter their wives anyway as it was normal in seventh century Arabia and given by the rates of domestic violence in the modern world things haven't changed much have they.

 

Even though it says to do it as a last resort, I still think that's pretty shady. Women are free and equal citizens and can do what they want, and for a holy book to mandate punishing them with violence because of being "rebellious", even as a last resort, is to me and many other people detestable.

 

Absolute freedom doesn't exist so women can't do what they want and neither can men. There are laws and rules in every society and as I've pointed out to you earlier many things perceived as not causing harm are causing major harm to society which is why Islam outlaws them.

 

---------- Post added 14-06-2014 at 19:01 ----------

 

What about them, the fact they exist is proof they exist, not proof they were created.

 

what about cars and motorbikes, the fact they exist is proof they exist, not proof they were created. See how stupid your argument is? If they weren't created how do they exist?

 

No it isn't, but lets assume it is, why would Allah make it possible for a human lung to fail thereby depriving one of its creation the ability to breath.

 

Because death is an inevitability of life. Every human being that is born will die.

 

Thats not proof that a God exists, its proof that we evolved to need air.

 

Laughable statement. Human beings have always needed air.

 

Again that just proof that animal evolved to take advantage of the available vegetation and that some vegetation fought back by becoming toxic to some animals.

 

So now vegetation fights back against animals? This is getting more laughable with every statement.

 

The fact that water exists isn't proof that a God exists, its just proof that we evolved with the need to consume water.

 

Again laughable. Human beings have always needed water.

 

Assuming that Allah does exist it is also directly responsible for the early deaths of billions of people. A caring God would make sure all animals had access to the things they need to enjoy life.

 

Do I need to keep repeating myself to people like you because it's getting rather boring. Do you not understand the concept that this life is not eternal and was never meant to be. Only the after life is eternal.

 

 

That wasn't your claimed, you claimed there were fewer males that females, and all the data says that you was wrong.

 

All the data says you are wrong and India is still higher than Pakistan, Qatar and every other Muslim country according to all reliable data.

 

 

There isn't an atheist hand book which instructs atheists to be violent, there is however and book which is claimed to be the word of God which does instruct its believes to be violent.

 

You're right there is no instruction manual for atheists so they are free to be as violent as they like. The instruction manual of the Quran gives specific guidelines on when to use violence and the nature of the violence. It also instructs one to stop violence immediately once it is no longer necessary.

 

 

Did the God you worship create that human or was he created by a different God, and is your God all knowing and all powerful?

 

There is only one creator. There is no different creators for different human beings. Yes he is all knowing and all powerful and the point of this is what? To avoid answering my question? You don't have an answer do you?

[daneha]

 

The laws and rules handed to human beings in the Quran are just as relevant today as they were in 7th century Arabia as the exact same problems still exist. From a western liberal viewpoint one is free to do as they like as long as they're not hurting anyone. Adultery causes severe hurt to the partner on the receiving end it causes severe hurt to children if any are involved, in many cases it breaks up the family and causes lasting psychological damage for the children once they grow up. Why then is Adultery legal? In Islam Adultery is outlawed.

Islam got round that problem by allowing men to have more than one wife and have sex with slaves, sounds like it was written by men for the benefit of men.

 

Alcohol causes drink fuelled violence, sexual assaults, is a strain on public healthcare, costs police resources time and effort. Why is Alcohol legal? In Islam Alcohol is outlawed.

No it isn't, the Quran says it should be consumed in moderation and not before prayers.

Sex before marriage has lead to many single mothers being left to bring up children on their own while the irresponsible father is no where to be seen. Some of these kids then grow up to join gangs and commit crime. Marriage joins two people together in responsibility with the intention of bringing up children together. Why is sex before marriage legal when the consequences show clearly how much damage is caused to society as a result? Islam outlaws sex before marriage.

Only with another Muslims, men are free to have sex with non Muslims, slaves and captives.

 

 

 

Having a verse actually prevents it because the verse doesn't say beat your wife as has already been pointed out here. The verse lays down several steps to take in such circumstances with lightly beating given as a last resort. Now lightly beating doesn't mean a slap in the face as has been claimed by Daneha it also doesn't mean a punch on the arm. Some scholars have argued it means throwing a pillow at the wife others have said taping her with a toothbrush is the meaning of lightly beating. If the verse wasn't there men would have continued to batter their wives anyway as it was normal in seventh century Arabia and given by the rates of domestic violence in the modern world things haven't changed much have they.

 

Before beating them into submission, the fact its says they have to obey is abhorrent and even more so that you can beat them if they don't.

 

 

 

what about cars and motorbikes, the fact they exist is proof they exist, not proof they were created.

I agree. The difference is that I can go and watch a car being build and talk directly to the designer and workers building it, I can see how each part is made from materials that already existed.

 

 

Because death is an inevitability of life. Every human being that is born will die.

I agree but to create life and then allow it die within seconds means the creator is either imperfect, sick in the head, or their isn't a creator.

 

 

 

Laughable statement. Human beings have always needed air.

Because we evolved on a planet with air.

 

 

 

So now vegetation fights back against animals? This is getting more laughable with every statement.

Yes, some evolved better defenses against being eaten.

 

 

 

Again laughable. Human beings have always needed water.

 

Because we evolved on a planet with water.

 

 

 

All the data says you are wrong and India is still higher than Pakistan, Qatar and every other Muslim country according to all reliable data.

 

Which isn't what you claimed, you claimed there are more women in Pakistan than men, and you was incorrect.

 

 

 

You're right there is no instruction manual for atheists so they are free to be as violent as they like. The instruction manual of the Quran gives specific guidelines on when to use violence and the nature of the violence. It also instructs one to stop violence immediately once it is no longer necessary.

So you agree than that God advocates violence.

 

 

 

There is only one creator. There is no different creators for different human beings. Yes he is all knowing and all powerful and the point of this is what? To avoid answering my question? You don't have an answer do you?

 

So your God created the thug in the full knowledge that he would hit that women in the back of the head, and you blame the thug why? it is surely Gods responsibility for creating him. Your God had the power to prevent that assault, but instead it orchestrated it by creating the thug. So assuming it exists it is abhorrent, it is worse than any human that as ever existed, and anyone that reveres such a violent entity is just as bad as the entity.

Edited June 14, 2014 by daneha

[longleyman]

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" Just something I spotted on the internet.