W.R.C.

Trying to reply to your PM but your inbox is full. Please clear space or email me. Thanks, Chris

PM'd, let me know if your interested. Chris

Yes to an extent building a trail is defacing the countryside, but no more so than a footpath, green lane, fireroad, house, visitor centre, public toilets, car park but these are all seen as being needed to allow people to get into the countryside- not to mention roads. The fact remains we're responsibly and sustainably building trails and working to put right the illegal building that has taken place, the parts that are ruined or whatever you want to call it are being left and allowed to regenerate naturally. The tracks are all either built around trees or through areas that we're felled for Forestry access over the years. I'm sure some trees we're removed illegally but not in a way thats going to adversley affect the area- Wharncliffe was only planted so we had wood after the 2nd world war if there was another war and we couldn't import it. Its only there as a result of being safety mat for the economy, like mant of the other Forestry owned land- its not naturally forest. You don't seem to agree that we accept it can be seen as defacing the countryside, but is going to happen whatever is done- we've set up to do it with as little impact as possible. Your still perfectly happy to use the defaced country side and make our job considerably harder and potentially in vain. Parkwood, yes I used to ride trials on the rocks aswell, motorbike and mountainbike- but how is that not a much more considerable defacing (the fact the area is even there) than a small trail built to internationally recognised standards and maintained to the same standard. Is the house you live in naturally formed in a naturally formed city or did some human come along while it was lush countryside and decide to build a city here. We've put a lot of effort into even being able to start to minimise the effect on the countryside which would otherwise be left illegally. Dalby and Sherwood forests both have areas motorbikes are allowed to use- Dalby certainly won't have as many illegal motorbike riders immediately surrounding it so if they can do it theres no reason Sheffield can't. The fact your calling the trails at Wharncliffe a defacement of the countryside yet still prepared to use them, causing more damage to them than a push bike, doing so illegally and making no effort to repair any damage caused is very hipocritical. As I've said I appreciate the problem you have, I've had the same problem with motorbikes and mountainbikes but there are ways around it. I do genuinely believe you that you will give way to horses etc. and have no problem with motorbikes using the fireroads/ waterfall etc. if this is the way they act- but the fact is a lot don't, by owning up to using the woods on a public forum you've made yourself a scapegoat to all the issues motorbikes cause. I also agree that if a designated area was set up for trials there would be very little damage caused to the area by the bikes- but thats because it'd be a suitable area for it, a DH track carved through peaty soil isn't suitable and just gets ripped to bits. There are so many rocky areas in wharncliffe well away from fireroads, paths, tracks that you wouldn't damage, wouldn't cause anyone any problems in. You could stick the bike in neutral and push it to them from Deepcar brickyard and then there'd be no safety issues other than your own which you accept and take responsibility for, but again this doesn't ever happen. I wish I could suggest a better alternative and I fully understand the concern you face about even bothering to try and seek an official area, but the fact you could build and ride your own area would have to make it worthwhile if it did happen, its unlikely to in Wharncliffe I agree but no more unlikely than other areas that now have facilities. This time last year it looked unlike DH would ever continue legally in the woods Derwent valley gets over 2 million visitors a year and still accomodates motorbikes without any accidents/ real damage. The second they go out of these areas there are problems though. Mountainbikes do cause some errosion damage in derbyshire riding footpaths illegally but nothing like the same amount a motorbike can do. Even just a rear tyre mark is 3 or 4 times wider than a mountainbike, at least twice as deep, if my legs had anything like the torque of a motorbike I'd be digging holes by pedalling- they dont though so I don't leave big marks. I could live off repairing footpath damage throughout derbyshire, all of which is caused by illegal motorbikes to a huge extent. I'm still confident with the amount of land and illegal motorbikes in Sheffield someone would allow an area to be used and maintained if you could prove a group of responisble people were prepared to take full control over it and meet all the demands and standards placed on them. Illegal riding will always exist but it'd be lessened- especially in trials that does require a completely specific area. Many people with a trials bike in Sheffield have never done anything more than climb a grassy bank on it- they mighaswell own a cub 90 for what they do on them but think what people could be doing in a designated area... I really believe somebody would back a scheme like this fully just because of the nuisance factor motorbikes cause the city as a whole. It just needs a group to put in the time and effort. As I said I think you've really just made youself the scapegoat when your really not that bad compared to others- I'm doing it myself by reffering to all illegal riders in the woods as "you" so I wouldn't take the comments that personally you've just left yourself open to people taking out their dislike of illegal bikes on you.

In the time i was typing that theres been a few new replies, I'm happy to give you details of people throughout Yorkshire and Derbyshire that could possibly help or at least point you in the right direction and help any way I can. People are going to talk to you like crap because your admitting your breaking the law, however petty a law seems it takes a lot of justifying before people will accept your reasons for breaking it. I can completely sympathise with your reasons but they don't justify it.... Feel free to email me at [email protected] I'm not going to carry on with this topic unless its going to result in productive action- its just going to break down into people picking at each others points, I could've gone into huge amounts of depth before my arguments were flawless but I've got much better things to do with my time than try and convince people breaking the law isn't something you should be openly admitting doing then trying to defend doing- it shouldn't need explaining (and I know you don't need it explaining to you, not trying to be patronising but you must know what I mean)

The fact the problem has been acknowladge by both us as riders and the FC is the only reason we are allowed to work on the trails in the woods- as of Sunday for DH. Any work you have seen beorehand is illegal digging and is not "us" as a group its individuals working illegally and not to IMBA standards, not with FC?FE backing. The only fires I'm aware of in the woods are kids, there has never been any fires started as a result of building work. FC may well have burnt off after clearing paths, coppicing, felling etc. this is common practice and nothing to do with mountainbikers. Noticed the majority of the peaks had smoke coming from it last weekend? They are controlled fires to burn off heather. A lot of what your using against us is reflecting that you aren't really aware whats going on- thats no bad thing, you have no way of finding out but it can't be used against a group when its nothing to do with them or of any benifit to mountainbikers in general, its conservation work essential for the area's biodiversity. Again no trees have been cut down for the benifit of mountainbikes, fallen trees have been used, tree felling takes place by FC contractors and the trees are used but non have been removed by us- although we do have permission to do so if needed, In an area such as Wharncliffe a motorbike tyre can cause much greater damage than a felled tree. Tree felling is essential, ruts are not. As you and Old Green have said they can't ban mountainbike riders, whatever they do people will get around, thats why we've formed a group to resolve these issues rather than letting it develop to the stage your at with motorbike access where its just a game of cat and mouse constantly where ever you go. Forestry have no vested interest AT ALL in mountainbikes being in the woods and are well within their rights to ban it all together. They're only working with us for the benifit of other forest users not us. You still seem to be missing the point that while some of the issues mountainbike cause are illegal you just being in the woods is illegal so that almost throws out the argument of what causes more damage. The fact is on a bridleway a motorbike is more damaging, more likely to spook horses- they don't even have to be close to scare a horse (more of a motox bike issue than trials I know but still...), harder to stop because of the added speed, traveling a greater speed, often comletely unidentifyable so more threatening, in large groups. If a dog runs through the middle of a group its almost certain to be hit and injured. I've been hit head on by a motorbike riding up a DH track, I've gone off a drop and a trials rider was sat on the landing eating- engine off right under the drop so I had no idea untill its too late. This could've been a walker, other mountainbiker but the fact is it wasn't... A motorbike going up a track causes far more damage than a mountainbike coming down, your speed is less constant for a start often using quite large amounts of throttle, much bigger tyres with a high amount of power going to the back. I've no doubt a skilled rider could get up and leave no more than a tyre mark but the majority I've seen are pretty much incompitent and do leave a mess. You've gone on a bit about us building trails being damaging to the area, your happy enough to use them to ride up though causing greater damage to the area? The so called damage done by mountainbikes is done to designated mountainbike areas, mainly tyres wearing into man made stuff mainly berms which are easily repaired with material won from the land around with FC backing. Your trying to pick this to bits but the simple fact is the FC are well aware of what goes on and what is done to repair it. We're making trails that are sustainable and maintainable without any effect to the surrounding environment (unless your going to pick up on a wheel barrow tread....?) Yet again the conclusion is continue to ride illegally but stop complaining people don't like it and don't complain when you lose your bikes to the police or actively sort something out as we've done. We're no more welcome really and as your quite happy to point out cause potentially as much damage yet we've got sorted and are begining to make our trails sustainable- you can aswell. Your obvioulsy not stupid, quite the opposite but you've got people with plenty of experience telling you the only answer is to sort something out to ride legally- restrictions are always going to be there where it is illegal. For the record the gate has had to be opened buy the house owner 11 times last time I spoke to them. This is by no means an accurate break down of whats gone on in the woods but certainly is of the bottom gate in probably 2004 Twice for the fire brigade- neither of which were mountain or motorbikes. Once for a walker with a broken ankle -neither of which were mountain or motorbikes 5 times for people needing medical treatment/ a horse box. One was a mountainbike crash on track, 1 whiplash after the horse was spooked by a motorbike they didn't even see, one for a horse that was spooked by quads, one for a horse envolved in a collision with a motorbike. 2 times for police following on from motorbike complaints. Once for mountain rescue after a reported broken back although nobody was actually found to be injured- we think this was a mountainbike and a big mis understanding with a walker calling for help that wasn't needed. But it goes to show, at least for that period of time at that gate motorbikes were the biggest problem for other forest users. This is always going to be true through the nature of them, they are more noisy, faster etc. i don't need to go on. You must appreciate why people don't welcome motorbikes but doing nothing to resolve this can only make things worse. The only conclusion is a group of riders need to sort things out if you want Wharncliffe to be a useable area- same applies anywhere else. Theres big groups fighting for green lanes- find out more about them, there are plenty of green lanes on FC land in Derbyshire so they're obvioulsy willing to work with people that are willing to work with them. In principle I've got no problem at all with motorbikes being in the woods, but not damaging existing trails they shouldn't be on anyway and deffinately not jeapordiseing the future of the woods for people who have put a lot of work into being accepted in the woods. If there was a designated area I'd seriously consider getting back into it but at the moment you mightaswell be driving the wrong way up a motorway. You know your not meant to, you know exactly why your not meant to, you know its putting everyone else at risk and everyone is going to be ****** off by it wether you do them any harm or not. Illegal riding of motorbikes, mountainbikes will always exist, so will illegal/ improper building but the more stuff there is legally the better the situation will be for everyone. As far as I'm concerned untill proper action is taken motorbikes will continue to be seen as an illegal nusance in Wharncliffe. The second any proper action is taken to sort it out me and I'm sure plenty of others would happily help out with the building and planning stage but if people continue to break the law in such large numbers it'l never happen. The waterfall is a perfect location for motorbikes and has good access avoiding most of the fireroads. Theres probably 6 people really heavily envolved in mountainbikes with the FC represtenting 1000's of people that use the woods at some point but we've now got permission to build a whole new XC loop and exstentive improvements to the existing DH's. Just out of interest you say you avoid the roads all the way, is this because your intending to ride illegally and want to draw as little attention as possible, riding illegally offroad because your not legally allowed on road or just because its more interesting? For instance if you could ride in the woods legally in a set area provided you used aset entry point (which would be off Manchester Road for the waterfall) would you be prepared to ride on the road legally to get to it or continue to ride illegally? Only asking as your views seem to represent the more responsible riders, its stuff like that that would show your prepared to make your own comprimises. Again I don't mean to sound like such a prick but you seem to be defending yourself with the fact motorbikes are unpopular so theres no point trying to make it legal and can potentially cause no more damage than mountainbikes and not a lot else. Actions speak louder than words.....

Having re-read the entire post I think what Bazripper is saying is largely true, not so much your 1st post but my opinion of you is greatly improved by reading your last few posts, the points you've raised are mostly very true and I agree with the majority. However damage is still caused by motorbikes wether the trail is manmade or not. At least manmade stuff can be repaired to its original standard, unfortunately nature can't and to an extent that means we need to look after it a lot more. The manmade stuff is being either built to have little or no impact on the area or being rebuilt in places it has had an effect on nature to reduce this. This doesn't happen within motorbike riding the vast majority of the time. I've spent a lot of time repairing damage to footpaths caused by motorbikes at Alport Castles in the peaks, with a far more technically challenging green lane only a few minutes away. There are a huge amount of fairly technical green lanes, any responsible green laner will know to check the status of the routes and changes in the laws and keep to them. Trials is a hard one, green lanes don't suffice for the majority of trials riders and you certainly wouldn't want to be ride a 60 mile loop on a trials bike. I appreciate to a point you have to ride illegally to practice competitive trials, but I've never once seen a trials bike rider in Wharncliffe riding trials they've been on the fireroads or dowhill tracks. It will never go away from the woods, the mountainbiker you mention is shown on a dvd driving off road karts in Wharncliffe with another pro rider, I've seen him several times riding a motorbike there. Its not like he doesn't know or respect the area, he has nowhere else to do it. BUT I still don't think that condones it. I ride mountainbike trials and rode motorbike trials for years, only quitting because there was nowhere to ride so I know exactly where your coming from- but the fact is the choice for me was ride illgally or don't ride motorbike trials. I took the latter because there is plenty (relatively) you can do on other motorbikes legally and theres a huge amount of bike trials again legally and opening up much more you couldn't ride on a motorbike anyway. But I was young then, I wouldn't quit DH now because its illegal and I wouldn't expect you to quit trials because you have nowhere to do it. But because theres a risk of not being able to ride DH locally I'm actively involved in legally building trails, though this isn't something Forestry etc. really want but they're prepared to make comprimises and allow us to build safely for other users alson as we meet their comprimises. In an area like Wharncliffe I don't really think there is a safe option for motorbikes and I don't think for a second Forestry would allow it but there are plenty of potential areas that could safely house motorbikes. You must be able to do something similar though, natural trials is always better, no questions asked- but you can have manmade "natural" stuff that is almost as nice, by that I mean manmade sections using rocks etc. from the area. I'm sure motorbikes are a big enough sport to find funding, you'd probably find a huge amount of support really in getting people out of riding illegally. You only need a bit of land that could be set up as a centre like a 4x4 centre and you've sorted the problem (obvioulsy nowhere near that simple but I think its overlooked by a lot of people). It can be done, building/ working with authoritys needs to become an integral part of most sports for them to surive with the current situation most "extreme sports" face. I'm aware of the accident at SIMX, which is now an indoor mountainbike track- I know this because I built a large amount of it so I could ride legally. As you say this is a part of riding and with no disrespect meant to anyone involved its something you should be prepared to accept could happen. Its a horrible thing to happen to anyone but anyone getting on a motorbike with the intention of jumping it should be aware that death is a possibility and not let it get as far as HSE. You don't see Pastrana go crying to the track builders when he crashes, it should be the same for everyone- you accept full responsibility for all your actions all the time. Accidents happen, unfortunately our society doesn't accept that anymore but its still an attitude accepted in some places- these are the ones people from the sports set up. I'm sure trials could have sustainable sections built, 4x4's have sorted out centres and they allready have green lanes- its not like they're desperatley in need of more places but they've got them going and now have options. In a lot of ways I feel for you and what your saying and to an extent i think a lot more would if you'd phrased things a bit better sometimes. I will never agree that its a choice between drugs or bikes though. It simply isn't and there are places for people to go for free kicks/ much cheaper chances for fun. You've mentioned mountainbiking yourself- why don't they get a mountainbike, much cheaper, much easier to run/store and can be used legally in a huge amount of places. Go climbing, bouldering etc. Obvioulsy some people will want to ride motorbikes and I can understand that, buts thats a choice against hundreds of things not bikes or nothing. I also agree with your police comment in a way, I've had a very similar experience of being cautioned for basically disagreeing with police in again a similar situation that there were 4 of us, I was walking our lass home (this is from town at around 3am) and certainly wasn't about to not walk her back because there were 4 of us instead of 3. But we've also had several run ins through street riding and through being polite and respectfull had no futher trouble with them, unfortunately again its the attitude of a lot of kids/ adults that mean policing is this way. Everyone will find a bit of it they'd be prepared to actively stand up against, but you respect it as being the way things work and move on- I've chosen to disagree (well mainly the alcohol chose for me but anway) but I still did it without being especially rude and certainly without being threatening or disrespectfull, I wasn't prepared to agree but I didn't have to be nasty about it. There is no real justification for the amount of kids riding mini bikes or any other bike in our streets, parks, woods etc. Some places its generally accepted, the police have known of areas and in a way overlooked it but kept control, wincobank seems to be the fravourite at the moment, parkwood was for ages but their disrespectful nature means the fact its illegal can't be overlooked, much of the time being illegal isn't the problem its the other behaviour that starts to cause problems. You've started 2 different debates here really, trials needs a specific place- nothing exists and that is wrong, something should be done but it won't be done for you. Motocross needs a specific place, very few places exist (especially without being a racer). Again should be sorted but needs actively sorting. Enduro doesn't really need a specific place so is more catered for, but still heavily opposed and needing the riders support. Kids riding bikes illegally in parks, round the street, round forests is nothing more than what it says. It just needs to stop. I appreciate not all kids (including the ones you mention) are riding a bike for the sake of it they probably do share your genuine interest and want to progress, but if theres as many as you suggest get something going for them even if its by just getting them together (kids and adults) on here and stating exactly what you need/ want and seek help getting it through all the various channel, MSA, MSU would all be willing to help I'm sure.... Any sport with the potential for injury will be bent over by red tape, if the potential for injury is to more than just the person doing it you mightaswell forget it without making some comprimise. Unfortunately that comprimise will be to find and use just legal places/ competitions. There are still competitions all over and clubs all over, again they'd all probably kill to have legal practice areas. But people need to make it happen, complaining about the system is going to do nothing but wind you and other people up- yes its s**t but its here to stay for now, we have to just work around it or risk people with no involvement in your sport injury, upset, fear and venues. If wharncliffe was closed to mountainbikes because of motorbikes (which has allready been on a knife edge for years) that would ruin 1000's of peoples enjoyment of the sport over a year and mean driving a very long way to use another similar venue. By working to legalise this we're reducing the risk of this happening but not getting rid of it, I think this needs to happen with motorbikes in general aswell. I'm happy for all the kids that never go futher than that park at the top of the road to have their bikes crushed, they know full well they shouldn't be doing it, their parents do when they buy them the bike and they'd soon get over it anyway. 3 bikes were seized on our road alone last summer, non of the kids they were taken off really care, they only used them to ride around the block quickly and annoy the **** out of everyone else. Like I say for serious riders I have sympathy but the majority of kids riding are not serious riders and never will be. Not meaning to sound like its everyones fault unless they're involved somehow in the sustainment of their sport but its the only way these sports work now... Most kids love digging and creating stuff anyway, and every adult has some immaturity left for getting dirty. (and not with the wife 3 or 4 times a year) Its a bit crap in a way but needs to happen.

deleted, please read my other post below.....

Need to get this up ASAP, more details and plans will be going on soon but theres allready talk about it so we need to keep everyone interested in the right place. Downhill: Febuary 11th 2007 Top of the "Fast track" 11am Digdays will from now on be, Second Sunday of the Month- DOWNHILL as of Feb 11th. XC dig days will continue to be the Last Sunday of each month carrying on from 28th January. Its been said before but seems to be ignored, illegal building will cost us the woods so please don't do it- especially now we can build legally. We're not trying to santitise anything, completely the opposite but we need everyone to do the work with singletractions permission or not at all. This will be the first (ever) official Singletraction downill dig day to take place in Wharncliffe so we want to make it big and start how we intend to continue. We currently only have permission to work on "Fast Track" A.K.A "Speedway" or "Bullwinkle" so will obvioulsy be working here. Signs are on order from FC but we will probabaly have to make do with temporary signs for the 1st dig day as there is no timescale on their arrival from Forestry. Untill materials are available for the ending we're going to work on the second biggest problem area of the track, which we believe to be the bog as you drop back left into the woods after the rocky entry. We'd like a dual line through this section, one making the big boulder jump on the left part of the run by shallowing the angle of the take off and creating a landing. The other a line which will avoid the jump completely taking you through a man made rock garden. Drainage work is also essential and will take priority, this will simply be a case of attracting water away from that area by slightly cambering the edges away. More detailed plans will follow shortly, suggestions are obvioulsy welcome for alternate lines/ features. Diggers are welcome to just spend an hour or so digging then go off and ride the rest of the woods but obvioulsy the more turn up the more we get done. We will be closing the track from 11am onwards untill we leave, please do not ride the track, their will be signs on the day warning people. Please email wharncliffe-downhill@hotmailDOTcoDOTuk or visit wwwDOTsingletractionDOTorgDOTuk for more details or any questions Replace DOT with . to avoid spam filters.