Considering breeding or putting your dog to stud? See this!

[Lotti 10]

This was an article written by Di Stevens (I have permission to crosspost) - a well known and experienced labrador breeder - of both show and working dogs.

Some parts shocked me and I thought I was a little more enlightened to the world of breeding!

 

Many folks ponder and decide they might stand their male at stud. Now I am not going to go into the why's and wherefores of if dogs are good enough. Nor the health issues. Nor any ethical or moral side of this. I am just going to tell it like it is giving some absolutely 101% true experiences i have had, with only one of the dogs I handle at stud, in the last 18 months since he started his stud career at 14 months old. Every mating is heavily supervised and handled, even a good bitch is held tight and every bitch is physcially supported even if she would stand under a hippos weight, nothing is left to chance

 

Nothing here is exaggerated, but its a side of it I bet most don't even slightly think of. i won't pretend no matings go well, easily, they do, but then by the number here you can tell it runs about 50/50. Could YOU handle this (as they say!)..................:

 

1) Deeds very first bitch should have been an easy straightforward old maid willing to be mated. Infact it was a bitch who had also never been mated before handled by owners who had never had a bitch mated. Deeds approached her, she growled. Deeds tried to mount her, she twisted out of their grasp and turned on him. Deeds decided maybe 'sex wasn't for him' and walked away to study the scenery.

What do you do?

What *I* did was bring out my experienced but retired old stud who LOVED a fiesty bitch and put him with her. She growled... up went his ears and a slow smile spread over his face. She lunged, he ducked and dived then jumped her (with my hand over her vulva so he couldn't penetrate). She knew she was beat, and being absolutely ready really, just pretending, stood like a rock, So I grabbed the old dog, dragged him quickly off, had them hold her head so she couldn't see, substituted the tentative young dog and shoved him in quick and she happily let him score his first touchdown

 

What would you do if the dog said 'no thanks'? People rarely think of that.

 

2) We had a lady come, use him. Go home, her bitch missed and then in reading the breed record supplement, saw a litter born to Deeds on the same day her bitch should have whelped. She automatically assumed they had been mated the same day and THAT was why her bitch had missed. She threatened me with solicitors letters until I got a letter from the bitch owners with the litter to show she had whelped 4 days early AND from my vet to say that a healthy dog can EASILY ejaculate effectively twice in a day even if they HAD been mated on the same day. She still spread some very bad vibes amongst some people and demanded her stud fee back rather than use her free return, which I gave as I never wanted to see her again!

 

3) Then we had a seemingly nice lady with everything in order come, and then use the dodgiest most horrible email sites to advertise her puppies. I nearly bought the whole litter off her and sold them myself if only I had the money at the time. I KNOW some of those pups are in rubbish homes and it haunts me.

 

4) On a lighter note we have had one bitch, a tiny, tiny girl come. They came a LONG way. The dynamics of the mating was quite dramatic, there was a good four inches between his bits and hers. How do you overcome that. there are ways but if you left them to it, in a very short space of time both dog and bitch would just be exhausted and walk away from each other OR the bitches back would ache and she would start snapping. You need to know how to overcome this and manually handle the bitches vulva to the dog whilst shoving him down a hole in the garden to lower him - Is this how *you* imagined stud work?....

 

5) A bitch came, un 'Premate' bloodtested, on day 12. She stood but every time he penetrated her she screamed. I sent her away. She came back on day 14. same thing. Owner just said 'get her mated' I know she is ready. She did seem ready. So I washed up and gave her an internal and she had a small stricture across her vulva. Upon this being broken at the vets she returned and was mated, twice. Three weeks later she had a brown discharge and a massive infection. The owner rang screaming and screaming at me saying it was all my fault for giving her the internal and I gave her an infection and she would be suing me. I put the phone down. I let it calm down and nothing came of it but its not pleasant.

 

6) Had a litter born to a bitch who lived on a farm. She whelped three days early and was showing no sign of labour. She went into labour whilst he was out riding a horse and when he came back the farm terriers had killed and mutilated several of the newborns. He saved 4 but two were injured and did not grow properly and had to be destroyed. Its not all fluffy happy endings I promise you. laying in bed thinking of your dogs pups dying horribly is not pleasant.

 

7) A bitch was wonderful to mate, was owned by a lovely lady who had had all sorts of sadness in her life in the last couple of years and deserved a beautiful litter from her beautiful bitch. She rang me in terrible distress with her bitch whelping NINE days early. As each, hairless, puppy of nine was born, it fought to breathe and slowly died as its lungs were not developed. The sorrow and grief that lovely lady felt was excruiating to experience. I do not count that she had a litter, she will be coming back to use a free return if the vet and specialists she is consulting can find an answer.

 

Then there is the constant pleasure of hearing time and time again of the PROBLEM puppies your dog has sired. Be that non genetic health problems, behaviour problems, size problems (too big, too small, not quite handsome enough) and of course its ALL the sire, never the Dam!

 

9) The lovely lady who had a litter of 4, watched them constantly, gave up her whole life to bring this litter up wonderfully, singled out a boy to keep, the best of the bunch, then the bitch laid on him whilst she was in the shower for five minutes at over two weeks of age. Tragically normal, but its dealing with the grief and the dispair of people that is so hard.

 

10) Lastly - aggressive bitches. Fiesty bitches. Bitches who are saying 'yes' with the back end and 'no' with the front end. I have been seriously bitten twice in the last 18 months and bitch owners themselves a couple times more than that trying to hold their girls. Anyone who thinks mating all labrador bitches is a many splendored thing would watch in horror as the sweetest girl, even bloodtested ready to mate snarls and slings herself about like a crocodile, snapping and MEANING IT foaming at the mouth even. A dog would be SERIOUSLY damaged if left to it ESPECIALLY if the bitches stand for mating, THEN as their muscles kick in and they tie the dog, they turn on him when locked together. That is seriously dangerous.

 

Just today, lovely friendly waggy socialised bitch comes for mating. day 14, bloodtested ready as come a fair distance, big strong male handler. Trots happily round the garden, has a wee. Goes in the garage with her owner. out comes the dog, cocks his leg over her pee, dives in the garage. I shut the door and step in, and she stands and flips her tail as he licks her. He dances a few seconds then jumps on her and Mrs HYDE kicks in. She snarls, spins and closes teeth on Deeds, her collar flying over her head in the process. She chases him from one side of the garage to the other spitting fire and all out to close her teeth properly on him. I throw him out the door, and she calms and wags and relaxes.

Now, what do you do? Brand her unmateable? Brand her aggressive? She had never so much as stopped wagging her tail on the two occasions I had previously met her around many other dogs. She just did NOT want to be mated.

So, and this is what i mean by 'are you READY for this' she was muzzled, He armlocked her head, I with all my might held up her twisting, fighting back end and the dog - good dog that he is - ignored it all, climbed on quietly ignoring the snarls and screams of rage and mated her and turned himself. We would have ALL got badly bitten without a muzzle and I would NOT have done that had the blood test not been done NOR she flicked her tail over happily before he mounted her. It was rape pure and simple. BUT IT UNFORTUNATELY CAN SOMETIMES BE PART OF IT.

 

So i hope some of the above might set a bit more thinking in motion about how people think its all natural and taking candy from a baby handling a dog at stud.

 

....Cos it isn't

[Moonbird 10]

I only read some of it, and not a lot of point me saying a lot as most know my views on the subject... but i hate the way dogs are mated it seems like rape to me, i'm sure dogs can manage a little courtship process and mating without human intervention ...its just horrible!

[katkin 10]

I only read some of it, and not a lot of point me saying a lot as most know my views on the subject... but i hate the way dogs are mated it seems like rape to me, i'm sure dogs can manage a little courtship process and mating without human intervention ...its just horrible!

 

got it in one moonbird- this is nothing short of rape - but you try telling that to the naive humans who think it would be nice to let their bitch/dog breed.

[Lotti 10]

A dog would be SERIOUSLY damaged if left to it ESPECIALLY if the bitches stand for mating, THEN as their muscles kick in and they tie the dog, they turn on him when locked together. That is seriously dangerous.

 

That is (apparently) why you can't let them get on with it without intervention - however, if that had been my bitch, she wouldn't have been mated.

 

The fact is people don't know this when they say they'll put their dog to stud or breed from their bitch because they think it'll be nice and then they get into a situation like that.

[Moonbird 10]

I do understand about the bitch turning on the dog and some supervision may be needed, but i just dont get why a bitch needs to be held and forced to comply from the start.

Dogs have their own way of courtship why should they be denied this? its just so not right in my eyes, no one would expect a human female to enter into sex "cold" like that... well i hope not anyway

Dogs have managed very well to breed forever without being held down, it just makes no sense to me, it seems cruel!

[Moonbird 10]

She just did NOT want to be mated.

So, and this is what i mean by 'are you READY for this' she was muzzled, He armlocked her head, I with all my might held up her twisting, fighting back end and the dog - good dog that he is - ignored it all, climbed on quietly ignoring the snarls and screams of rage and mated her and turned himself. We would have ALL got badly bitten without a muzzle and I would NOT have done that had the blood test not been done NOR she flicked her tail over happily before he mounted her. It was rape pure and simple. BUT IT UNFORTUNATELY CAN SOMETIMES BE PART OF IT.

 

 

OMG i never even read this bit till now, i could slap the thoughtless and cruel idiot from here to kingdom come!

[Lotti 10]

Dogs have managed very well to breed forever without being held down, it just makes no sense to me, it seems cruel!

 

They have, but we don't know how many have died in the process. I suppose I can see how people would rather do that than lose a pet.

 

As for your last post moonbird - I have to agree, I was shocked at that and it's the reason I'm so glad I never chose to put Takara through it. However if she hadn't wanted it, she wouldn't have had to do it, I can't see how any bitch is that good that that needs to be done.

[TattyBear 10]

Having seen my own bitch be mated it isnt very pleasent, however, the very experienced breeder we went to who has years and generations of experience has always said to us: 'You can tell when a bitch doesnt want to be mated because it is unfamiliar to her and she is nervous and you can tell when the bitch isnt ready!'

From showing her the above her and my opinion is that the bitch in one particular situation listed above is that the bitch wasnt 'entirely' ready and therefore she should NEVER have been forced to mate and should NEVER have been muzzled! If she fought that bad against the dog then she wasnt ready or there was something seriously wrong and shouldn't have been muzzled!

Many times bitches have to have their heads held so that they cant attack, however if the bitch does struggle at an alarming rate then the breeder should stop.

Im alarmed at the above and so is my breeder! You cant always go on what a blood test says, sometimes you have to go with your head! The owner of the stud we use will turn people away if she feels their bitch isnt entirely ready and it could cause damage. She would never force a mating to the point of using a muzzle!

[Moonbird 10]

Having seen my own bitch be mated it isnt very pleasent, however, the very experienced breeder we went to who has years and generations of experience has always said to us: 'You can tell when a bitch doesnt want to be mated because it is unfamiliar to her and she is nervous and you can tell when the bitch isnt ready!'

 

:sad: .....................................

[TattyBear 10]

The fact is people don't know this when they say they'll put their dog to stud or breed from their bitch because they think it'll be nice and then they get into a situation like that.

 

Not everyone is so naive Lotti, we did a lot of research prior to taking Molly. It is very clinical yes but I think it depends on the people who own the dog and the people that own the bitch. The owner of the stud we used has years of experience and although it was clinical and intervention was used, I never felt at any point it was rape. The dogs did play first and when it came down to 'it' yes we did hold Molly's head and although she moved her head slightly at one point she never started trying to attack or looked in pain or anything. If she had have done we would have stopped it.

Although if your post is here to provide info to the people that havent researched then I think it is a good eye operner.

 

However for the people that think its rape, at the end of the day dogs dont mate for pleasure like humans do and that is hard to get your head around (it was for me).

I dont agree with the breeder above who makes the bitch do it if she is fighting against it so hard she needs to be muzzled, in those situations most owners would stop and either try the next day or wait for the next season.

[TattyBear 10]

:sad: .....................................

 

Why the sad face Moonbird?

[Moonbird 10]

However for the people that think its rape, at the end of the day dogs dont mate for pleasure like humans do and that is hard to get your head around (it was for me).

.

 

I don't think any living creature mates for any reason other than it being pleasurable,they wouldn't do it if they didn't want/like it, animals don't do it to produce offspring they don't think in that way, offspring is just the result of them following their instincts.

I am sorry tatty and i don't want to be controversial but i think the breeder is saying that to salve his or her own conscience, and make all seem ok to the owner of the bitch, thats why it was hard to get your head around because really in your heart you knew it wasn't right.

The sad faces is because it all makes me feel sad!