But is it art?

[metaphoria 10]

It's all subjective, but I like art that demonstrates skill built through many years of hard work on a bedrock of natural talent. Truly great art should be something that no one else could do, or would have thought to do.

 

There's a piece of 'work' by Martin Creed entitled "Lights Going On and Off".

[downandout 10]

No, you've missed my point. Which is purely that in the middle of a pile of rubbish, a canvas is going to jump out as art. A canvas suggests art in a way that most rubbish does not. And the Bob Law piece, again, is not blank.

 

The pile of rubbish - don't think much of that, no. But I can see where he was going with it, and if he'd arranged the rubbish himself it would be one thing - the fact it was made on his instructions undermines it somewhat, though.

 

Sorry to but in as a newbie, but while I agree with this sentiment, I'm not sure I agree with *why*. I'm not sure it makes a difference that the work in question is a canvas - which, admittedly, references a specific and conventional form of art. And I don't think it would matter if the canvas were blank - of that had been the deliberate decision of the artist.

 

The point, I think, is about *intention*. If the artist intends an object - even a urinal - to be art, and does so with a motive and a point to prove, it's art. Simple as. And I'd agree with Jessica23 that the Law piece does that. It's a deliberate act, with an agenda.

 

I do, however, think it's pretty immaterial whether the artist poses a pile of rubbish himself, or arranges for it to be done. No one took Mozart to task for not playing the actual instruments.

[VideoPro 10]

... No one took Mozart to task for not playing the actual instruments.

 

Mozart was an accomplished piano, violin and cello player as well as several wind instruments.

[Phanerothyme 12]

Mozart was an accomplished piano, violin and cello player as well as several wind instruments.

 

Couldn't paint for toffee though.

[downandout 10]

Mozart was an accomplished piano, violin and cello player as well as several wind instruments.

 

Boom tish. I meant that he didn't do all the work of the orchestra, not that he couldn't play any instruments - but incidentally, he wasn't one of the foremost players of his age. Which is presumably why he left that job to someone else...

[Chris_Sleeps 10]

Because some judge decides it is art, a pile of rubbish is worth £15000 and a blank canvas is worth £60k? Its stupid.

What people will spend their money on is always stupid. You can't justify or dismiss something on the money that was paid for it. You could love something that cost a fiver and detest something that cost a million pounds, which is fine.

 

Secondly, a judge didn't decide it was art. The fact that an artist made it and an artist put it in an art contest makes it art. The judge just used their opinion to decide whether it should win or not. Get a different set of judges and the whole contest is different, because it is all subjective.

 

I meant that he didn't do all the work of the orchestra, not that he couldn't play any instruments - but incidentally, he wasn't one of the foremost players of his age. Which is presumably why he left that job to someone else...

He was a virtuoso and a child prodigy. He made a vast fortune as a child touring europe and playing to people. He was the foremost pianist of his age. He composed and conducted his own work. You've really picked a bad example here.

 

Secondly, he can't do the work of the orchestra, for he is just one man. He can only compose for other musicians. The music analogy doesn't work because beyond solo performance other musicians are always needed, whereas in art one man can do everything.

Edited October 4, 2011 by Chris_Sleeps

[downandout 10]

OK, then. Bad example. But looking back to an acknowledged *golden age* of craft skills in art - it's deemed entirely acceptable that painters like Titian directed a workshop of junior painters to actually execute their work. My point was really that the art is much more in the overarching vision that in the nuts-and-bolts of the making - so there's no less validity, art-wise, in directing other people to assemble your pile of rubbish than getting your own hands dirty.

[Chris_Sleeps 10]

it's deemed entirely acceptable that painters like Titian directed a workshop of junior painters to actually execute their work.

Indeed it is. Andy Warhol did the same in his factory system. I dislike the fact that there are Warhol prints that his hand never touched though, but people still consider it by him so it is their choice to buy them. I can understand your point though, but I severely dislike it.

[llamatron 10]

No, you've missed my point. Which is purely that in the middle of a pile of rubbish, a canvas is going to jump out as art. A canvas suggests art in a way that most rubbish does not. And the Bob Law piece, again, is not blank.

 

The pile of rubbish - don't think much of that, no. But I can see where he was going with it, and if he'd arranged the rubbish himself it would be one thing - the fact it was made on his instructions undermines it somewhat, though.

 

no it would jump out as something useful in a pile of rubbish, an unused piece of canvas. Similarly an unused A4 pad would jump out.

[downandout 10]

Indeed it is. Andy Warhol did the same in his factory system. I dislike the fact that there are Warhol prints that his hand never touched though, but people still consider it by him so it is their choice to buy them. I can understand your point though, but I severely dislike it.

 

Don't get me wrong. I don't particularly like it either. I just think that idea is more relevant now than it was then. Given that art now leans heavily towards the conceptual, what matter is the architect of the idea, rather than the people who implement it.

[Jessica23 10]

no it would jump out as something useful in a pile of rubbish, an unused piece of canvas. Similarly an unused A4 pad would jump out.

 

It is not unused.

 

It is not blank.

[llamatron 10]

It is not unused.

 

It is not blank.

 

In a pile of rubbish you would see a blank canvas that you could paint on!