Could there have been another Hillsborough Disaster last night

[happyhippy 11]

fascinating writing there macca and its made me think. people are so happy to jump on liverppol fans and call scousers all the names under the sun but how was the hooligan trouble eradicated in the 80's?

 

people didnt simply say shame on the fans and it went away. it took legislation and more organisation from the authorities to stamp it out.

 

If this was another type of major event, for example a major rock concert, there would be uproar at the officials for the appalling organisation.

 

The two are incomparable, if nothing else for segregation reasons. There was hated legislation which came in, and nearly identity cards (ring any bells?), AFTER the ban on English clubs was imposed.

 

Albeit after trouble in Europe from various clubs in England, and 'fans' of the national side, it should be noted that the tragedy which was Heysel involved Liverpool fans.

 

Of course, Heysel was so dreadfully inadequate for a match of that magnitude, and the awful scenes which followed were thousands of times worse than Athens, yet Liverpool were the culprits.

 

As regards the hooligan element, all that has happened is that they meet well away from the ground and leave honest fans alone, which is in stark contrast to the 'casuals' days.

 

Suits me, as it does mean that people can enjoy the match in a good natured atmosphere.

[Macca 10]

So your argument is this.

 

Despite the fact that the venue was chosen years in advance (cheers Guderian), it was UEFA's fault that it couldn't hold the number of fans who decided to turn up on masse to get in without tickets, or tickets which weren't part of the allocation to Liverpool FC, and the local authorities' fault because of the behaviour of Liverpool fans..

 

I'd throw that out of court before you even got to the chamber..

 

No, I'm not arguing, you and the others are the ones who seem to be getting a little hot under the collar.

 

Firstly, on the stadium, all I've said was it was a poor choice. It isn't a football stadium, and isn't built to cope with a football crowd. That's fact. And thank you (Happy Hippy?!) for raising the point of the venue being decided years in advance. Evidently the selection process and timing needs to be reviewed; as this time it came up woefully short.

 

Regarding the authorities being to blame for Liverpool fans behaviour; you're twisting what I've said. All I've said is that the poor preparations of the authorities, and their subsequent ineffectiveness on the day helped to increase the problems, rather than prevent and or stop them. That, again, is true. As is my assertion that we are (collectively) to blame in some regards.

 

If you can find the relevance of Michael Howard full stop, I'll buy you two.

 

The relevance of Michael Howard is that he actually attended the game (unlike you and the other complainers) and he raised concerns about the stadium whilst he was there. His points are valid. And here they are:

 

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/l/liverpool/6686867.stm

 

Former Conservative leader Michael Howard was at the game - which Liverpool lost 2-1 - and he said: "I didn't think the match should have been held at the stadium.

 

"It's not a football stadium and is not equipped to cope with that number of people.

 

"Ticket checks were a joke. Many people with valid tickets were not allowed in.

 

"That is not acceptable and Uefa really need to look at their procedures and make sure everything is all in order.

 

"As far as I'm aware no-one was hurt, and that's a mercy, but it's no thanks to the Greek authorities, and I'm afraid there was a large measure of incompetence."

 

But Gaillard responded: "It is very easy to say it is not a suitable stadium, coming from the man that invented the poll tax.

 

I notice you failed to point out the relevance of Gaillard's retort. Perhaps you'd like to do so now? In my eyes he had no way of countering Howard's points constructively, hence his barbed response. My next reply might highlight a reason for this...stay tuned.

 

How have UEFA cocked up, aside from that I agree the number of corporate seats is a disgrace? We're talking about a stadium of over 60000 capacity. How can UEFA be culpable for a load of fans travelling without tickets, intent on getting into the stadium by any means necessary?.

 

Uefa are not culpable for these fans travelling, and I've never intimated that they are. You are again twisting my comments. Uefa were culpable as they didn't ensure adequate measures to stop these fans getting into the stadium.

 

As was posted earlier, some Liverpool fans travelled, probably hundreds, with NO intention of storming the ground, but to have a holiday, and enjoy the atmosphere, as did hordes of Celtic fans a few years ago.

 

Hassle with Liverpool. Again. No hassle with Celtic. Again.

 

I have to take issue with this statement. You've decided to refrain from commenting on the previous two finals we've been to in the last six years, I wonder why? And I agree, all Celtic fans are angels http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/5289202.stm just like all Liverpool fans are scum.....

 

On the one hand, people seem to be saying "They knew we were coming so why didn't we have a larger allocation?", and, "We always get in.". First part was never going to happen, second part illegal..

 

You're dealing with me, not people.

 

I stopped complaining about the allocation after the protest at our last home game of the season, as I knew nothing would change. True I've brought it up here, but only to illustrate the point that the authorities could have easily predicted what might happen with such a small allocation of tickets.

And again you are twisting my point. I've (repeatedly) said that they knew we would bring 000's of additional fans, and asked why they weren't prepared in light of this. I have not said "they knew we would bring them so why not give us more seats." And I haven't said anywhere that bunking into a ground is legal, or defendable.

 

Following on from that, they say "And fans who had genuine tickets couldn't get in because of the forgeries.". Well let's have a look at who had the forgeries, and kept their fellow fans out, shall we? Let's have a look at which set of fans tried to force their way in? Let's have a look at which set of fans were mugging their own?

 

Clearly, that's down to UEFA.

 

True, forgeries stopped fans with legitimate tickets getting in, but they also couldn't get in because people with no ticket at all were allowed in. Also, there were isolated cases of fans being mugged, yes, but I think they've been blown out of all proportions by the tabs. See my next post.

[Macca 10]

Another first person account of the events in Athens.

 

How people were able to get in the ground (and even on a plane) without a ticket!

 

The journey started at Liverpool John Lennon airport at 11:30pm on Monday, and in keeping with the whole experience, there began the problems of ineffective organisation and the degrading experience of being treated like cattle. We were called to our boarding gate, as the plane was apparently "boarding". At this point, we were herded into a corridor without ventilation or air conditioning and forced to stand in claustrophobic conditions for around half an hour as the buses were not yet available to take us from the gate to our aircraft.

 

Finally we were taken on board our boeing 747 for the flight to Athens. It was taking a long time for everyone to board and find a seat (as the seating was unreserved), and so people were in and out of the toilets for comfort breaks. Then people wearing luminous jackets and worried faces came on board to talk to the senior cabin attendant, who happened to be stood next to us. "We have a problem" they said, "578 people checked-in, we issued 578 boarding cards, 578 people passed through the security checkpoint near the gate, but you have 581 on board". So under the current security climate you can't take liquids on a flight because of the terrorist risk, but apparently it is entirely possible for 3 people to by-pass all of that security and sneak on board an international flight! After 10 minutes of headcounts and searches for the extra three passengers, one of the people in luminous jackets walked onto the plane again and announced "you're going to miss your slot if you wait any longer, so you may as well just go"! And ten minutes later we were rattling down the runway with three extra passengers!

 

On arrival in Greece, the tour company had done us proud, and the buses were waiting within yards of the terminal building to take us to our resort. We arrived early Tuesday morning and had a fantastic day and night. Similarly, the next morning the buses arrived on time at 11:00am to take us into Athens. The tour company we went with couldn't be faulted, and were the only ones with any organisational capacity that we encountered!

 

En route to Athens, we were stopped twice by police, who seemed to want to delay our journey for reasons that were never quite clear (they never boarded the bus, spoke to the driver, or carried out any checks - just flagged us down, made us sit in a layby for 10 minutes, then waved us on again). But despite the annoyance, we arrived near the stadium at about 1pm. We decided that rather than wait for 8 and three quarter hours around a stadium with no entertainment, no bars, and no refreshments (other than stands alongside the road) we would head into Athens, see the Acropolis, and soak up some of the pre-match atmosphere. This we did, and the atmosphere around Sytagma square was great. Even better, just down the road near the acropolis metro station, we found a bar in an area where Milan fans were being picked up and dropped off, and we had a fantastic couple of hours with their fans, singing songs, taking photographs and swapping opinions on how the game would go. Both sets of fans were impeccably behaved here, and it was probably the highlight of the day.

 

At around 5pm we decided to head back to the ground via the metro and this is where the real problems began. We had with us a couple of mates without tickets, who wanted to stay with us (for understandable reasons) for as long as possible. So we thought we would be able to go to the stadium and have a couple of beers, and who knows, they might even pick up a ticket from a tout. Getting off the metro the trouble started. The first cordon of riot police were at the bottom of the steps checking tickets. We spent about 10 minutes trying to decide what to do - we didn't want to part company nearly 5 hours before kick-off, but those of us with tickets didn't want to head back away from the stadium either as we could see the crowds building already. After some lengthy deliberation, I really needed a pee, and went looking for a toilet. There wasn't one, but there was a wall to the left that people seemed to be using as an unofficial gents so I went there. I soon noticed that there were no police at all between the "gents" and the stadium concourse though, so I returned to our group armed with this knowledge - one group visit to the toilet we all made it through the first cordon with no problems.

 

One barrier passed, no ticket check at all, no intentions of sneaking someone in on our part, we just wanted to stick together for a bit longer before kick-off.

 

The next line of police was about 70 metres past the first one. Our plan now was to have a beer, see if anyone was selling tickets, and maybe get something to eat. But there were no refreshments available in this area at all, and more and more people seemed to be coming through. Before too long it was getting really busy and we thought we would have to part company with our ticketless mates and head into the ground. Just as we were saying our goodbyes, someone was handing out photocopies of tickets though, saying that these would allow us to get through the next cordon. No charge for them, as they were blatant fakes. They were printed on paper, not card. There was nothing printed on the back, no hologram, and they all had the same numbers on them! We didn't think there was a chance that they would get in the ground with them, but if it was true that they would get you through the next barrier then we thought at least we would be able to stick together for a bit longer. The time now was probably around 6:15pm - roughly three and a half hours before kick-off. We went to the cordon and queued. And queued. And then a slight crush started to develop. The rate at which the police was letting people through was nowhere near the rate at which people were joining the queue from the metro station. The slight crush started to intensify, and then over to the right a group burst through the cordon towards the gate that was about 20 yards beyond. Whether this was because of the crush or because of a deliberate attempt to storm the gate I can't say, but there were no calls to charge like you would expect if it was an organised attempt to rush in. Maybe a few were trying it on, and the others were carried through. The police responded by battering people round the head and back with their batons, and people started to get worried and upset in the queue. One of my mates without a ticket decided that he had seen enough, said goodbye and went to find a telly to watch the game on. Things were getting a bit ugly, and lots of people were worried. The crush was still intensifying (though it was more uncomfortable and claustrophobic than genuinely threatening - like the mosh pit at a big gig about 5 mins before the headline act comes on), the police were shouting at us now in the queue, and some people were starting to get a little hysterical with thoughts of Hillsborough in their heads. To be honest, while the crush was deeply annoying, people were never going to get crushed to death at this barrier, as the only barrier was a line of police and not a solid fence. My worry was more that the weight of people would overwhelm the police and we would be forced through the cordon, at which point I was more worried about getting cracked round the head by the police than I was worried about the effects of crushing. They started to let people through again, and thankfully at a faster rate than before. Their main aim seemed to be to control the flow of people though, rather than check tickets. We all waved our tickets at them, and my mate his photocopy, and we were through.

 

Two barriers passed, no ticket check at all, still no real intentions of sneaking someone in on our part, though the thought was by now growing fast that my mate actually might be able to get in with his photocopy rather than just soak up the atmosphere. We were by now very frustrated at being herded from one group of aggressive riot police to the next though.

 

The next check was immediately through this barrier, and there were polite stewards using infrared pens to see if tickets were genuine. But, it was completely random! About one in three were getting checked, and the stewards were approaching people like bored students handing out nightclub flyers. If you walked past them waving your ticket they weren't bothered at all. About half of our lot were checked, but we all made it through no problem, including the lad with the photocopy.

 

Three barriers passed, one pathetic attempt at a ticket check made, and by now we were convinced that our mate would make it into the game.

 

We were then into a wide open space with fountains etc. There were some dancing girls and a couple of advertising stands. The atmosphere was OK in here.The next check was just ahead though, where the police had parked two vans to funnel people in. All we had to do was shuffle past waving tickets in the air at riot police and we were through. This again was not a ticket check, it was a way of controlling the flow of people into the ground area.

 

Four barriers passed, still just that one pathetic attempt to check tickets, and now we just wanted to get into the stadium.

 

So, to the final barrier - a lightweight fence being manned by stewards that led into the stadium itself. Again no-one checked the tickets properly and we all got in with no problem. The seats were quite roomy, and as no-one sat for any of the game anyway (too busy standing up and singing), my mate with the photocopy was able to stand next to us without disturbing anyone on either side of our group. The possibilities for getting past the last barrier were endless. As the stadium was lower than the concourse, people were able to shin up a fairly low wall to climb into the stadium. To get to the toilets you had to go back out of the gate (there were none in the stadium), so other people were taking their mates tickets out to others who were outside without tickets. Some people were just showing bus passes, or UEFA leaflets about the stadium to the stewards and were getting in. It was a joke. A complete joke.

 

Five barriers passed, still just the one pathetic attempt to check tickets, and we were all in the ground.

 

Of course, word was by now getting round to people outside that you could get in without a ticket, and more and more were arriving. Despite this, the stadium was not "full" as the police apparently said later, at least, not in our area. There was quite a lot of space around us, and although there were more people than seats, it was not dangerous. Nowhere near as dangerous as being outside with the police anyway!

 

The upshot of all of this is that I passed through five supposed checks, and not one person looked at my ticket properly. With a simple turnstile, with a bloke tearing off the perforated strip, they could have avoided all of the problems. Even better, they could have used a barcode system like they use at the nou camp. Because they used line after line of aggressive riot police, who were more intent on herding people than checking whether they were entitled to be there, they were virtually encouraging people to sneak in. I mean, my mate had no intention at all of sneaking in when we came of the metro, and had resigned himself to watching it in a bar. But when you are that big a fan, and you find out that all you have to do is walk through lines of police calmly waving a photocopy in the air, it is one hell of a temptation. Some proper turnstiles and he would never have bothered.

 

I'm not saying that there weren't a minority of Liverpool fans who were determined to get in the ground at all costs. I didn't see them, but from other stories it seems they were there. I also saw some complete prats away from the ground in bars, whose behaviour was not as it should be. But from my perspective, the vast majority without tickets who got in were like my mate - ordinary fans taking advantage of the opportunity to watch the game afforded to them by the incredibly lax ticket checking system.

 

The stadium was the wrong choice, the ticket allocation was appalling, but the system put in place to check tickets was an absolute disgrace. No amount of blame shifting from UEFA can disguise that fact, and they really ought to look at the organisational capacity of the countries that they award major finals to. On the evidence of Istanbul and Athens, Turkey and Greece seemingly can't organise the proverbial night-out in a brewery. All those riot police antagonising people are really not necessary. Just one proper barrier, with turnstiles manned by lots of people checking tickets methodically and speedily would have avoided all of the problems.

 

Now, look at Rick Parry's latest statement on the events before and after Athens. If you still can't see that Uefa weren't on the ball with this, then I give up.

 

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/l/liverpool/6696155.stm

 

Meanwhile, Parry hopes Uefa make positive strides in assessing and reacting to the crowd chaos at the Champions League final in Athens.

 

Thousands of Liverpool fans failed to get into the ground, despite having tickets, and riot police used tear gas and batons outside the Olympic Stadium to quell disturbances as supporters were turned away.

 

Uefa spokesman William Gaillard has suggested future finals could be rotated around stadiums with a capacity of at least 70,000 and Parry would back such a plan.

 

"It has got to be a good idea to stage finals in stadiums that are up to the task," said Parry.

 

"To have a stadium with no counting systems and no turnstiles in this day and age is simply unforgivable for any standard of game, let alone a major final.

 

"We produced a report for Uefa the week before predicting, sadly, all of the things that actually did go wrong.

 

"We told Uefa our intelligence suggested there were 5,000 forged tickets in existence.

 

"They knew and we knew that thousands would travel without tickets and stressed the need for a proper check at the outer cordon.

 

"We don't condone the behaviour of Liverpool fans who charged gates, who stole tickets or knowingly had forgeries but, at the same time, we are hugely concerned that many innocent fans with valid tickets did not get in.

 

"There was real breakdown in procedures by any analysis and the checks at the outer cordon clearly didn't work.

 

"Short of having 40,000 tickets you are always going to have disappointed people.

 

"But 17,000 was nowhere near enough. We have seen the numbers in Dortmund for the Uefa Cup final in 2001 and Istanbul for the Champions League final two years ago and it was clear there was going to be the same or even a greater demand in Athens."

[Preacher Man 10]

the two are comparable. if the trouble had been between milan and liverpool fans i would agree with you, but it wasnt.

they are comparable because both involve large crowds going into a stadium.

they are comparable because you should need tickets to get in.

they are comparable because the stewards should stop people without tickets entering the venue.

 

the entire event was very poorly organised and you are ignoring all evidence proving this. you are ignoring first hand reports from people who were there and instead listening to the tabloid talk from people who just like a dig at people form liverpool, as you are proving you do yourself.

 

 

 

The two are incomparable, if nothing else for segregation reasons. There was hated legislation which came in, and nearly identity cards (ring any bells?), AFTER the ban on English clubs was imposed.

 

Albeit after trouble in Europe from various clubs in England, and 'fans' of the national side, it should be noted that the tragedy which was Heysel involved Liverpool fans.

 

Of course, Heysel was so dreadfully inadequate for a match of that magnitude, and the awful scenes which followed were thousands of times worse than Athens, yet Liverpool were the culprits.

 

As regards the hooligan element, all that has happened is that they meet well away from the ground and leave honest fans alone, which is in stark contrast to the 'casuals' days.

 

Suits me, as it does mean that people can enjoy the match in a good natured atmosphere.

[wuduswitch 10]

As someone brought up at Hillsborough,switched allegiance to the Lane (or had an epiphany) at the age of fourteen and have always loved LFC,can i just say that personally the only trouble i've ever witnessed was never from northern teams, especially Liverpool fans. There will always be an idiot element unfortunately. Macca good thread BTW. my dad travelled to Wembley in 1966 supporting the Owls and him & his mates didn't have tickets, they were in a cafe with Everton fans watching the match on tv

[happyhippy 11]

No, I'm not arguing, you and the others are the ones who seem to be getting a little hot under the collar.

 

Argument as in reasoned debate. The only people here who are lashing out are those having a go at UEFA.

 

Firstly, on the stadium, all I've said was it was a poor choice. It isn't a football stadium, and isn't built to cope with a football crowd. That's fact. And thank you (Happy Hippy?!) for raising the point of the venue being decided years in advance. Evidently the selection process and timing needs to be reviewed; as this time it came up woefully short.

 

Regarding the authorities being to blame for Liverpool fans behaviour; you're twisting what I've said. All I've said is that the poor preparations of the authorities, and their subsequent ineffectiveness on the day helped to increase the problems, rather than prevent and or stop them. That, again, is true. As is my assertion that we are (collectively) to blame in some regards.

 

How the hell have I twisted anything?

 

The relevance of Michael Howard is that he actually attended the game (unlike you and the other complainers) and he raised concerns about the stadium whilst he was there.

 

I thought you lot had a famous sense of humour?

 

I notice you failed to point out the relevance of Gaillard's retort. Perhaps you'd like to do so now? In my eyes he had no way of countering Howard's points constructively, hence his barbed response. My next reply might highlight a reason for this...stay tuned.

 

Yet you applaud Rick Parry for agreeing with GAILLARD's suggestion.

 

Uefa are not culpable for these fans travelling, and I've never intimated that they are. You are again twisting my comments. Uefa were culpable as they didn't ensure adequate measures to stop these fans getting into the stadium.

 

Read my comments in context.

 

I have to take issue with this statement. You've decided to refrain from commenting on the previous two finals we've been to in the last six years, I wonder why?

 

Would that include a final where Liverpool fans got in to the stadium in numbers WAY above their allocation? But then again, you got your own way, so clearly there's no problem. When are you lot actually going to look at yourselves more? Even earlier in this thread there was a statement to the effect of "Where were the third party tickets, which have served us so well?". What sort of attitude is that?

 

You're dealing with me, not people.

 

No, I'm dealing with everyone who has contributed to this thread.

 

I stopped complaining about the allocation after the protest at our last home game of the season, as I knew nothing would change. True I've brought it up here, but only to illustrate the point that the authorities could have easily predicted what might happen with such a small allocation of tickets.

 

At last something we both agree on. The allocation was dreadful.

 

And again you are twisting my point. I've (repeatedly) said that they knew we would bring 000's of additional fans, and asked why they weren't prepared in light of this. I have not said "they knew we would bring them so why not give us more seats." And I haven't said anywhere that bunking into a ground is legal, or defendable.

 

Again, how have I twisted anything?

 

True, forgeries stopped fans with legitimate tickets getting in, but they also couldn't get in because people with no ticket at all were allowed in. Also, there were isolated cases of fans being mugged, yes, but I think they've been blown out of all proportions by the tabs. See my next post.

 

So your point is?

[happyhippy 11]

the two are comparable. if the trouble had been between milan and liverpool fans i would agree with you, but it wasnt.

they are comparable because both involve large crowds going into a stadium.

they are comparable because you should need tickets to get in.

they are comparable because the stewards should stop people without tickets entering the venue.

 

the entire event was very poorly organised and you are ignoring all evidence proving this. you are ignoring first hand reports from people who were there and instead listening to the tabloid talk from people who just like a dig at people form liverpool, as you are proving you do yourself.

 

They're not comparable at all, as for a start one of the main considerations is segregation in football stadia, which doesn't happen at concerts. Far from ignoring the fact that it was a shambles, I agree it was. Had there been no trouble from the Liverpool contingent, however, the problems would have proportionately been lessened.

[plekhanov 10]

they are officially the worst fans in Europe.

 

UEFA report severely reprimands Liverpool fans

By Mike Collett

 

LONDON, June 3 (Reuters) - Liverpool supporters have been identified as the worst behaved at European matches in a report to be handed by UEFA to the British Government in Brussels on Tuesday.

 

The report, which has been compiled by undercover police agents from a neutral European force over the last four years, will be given by UEFA president Michel Platini to British sports minister Richard Caborn.

 

UEFA spokesman William Gaillard told Reuters: "The incidents involving Liverpool fans have been well known to us before the trouble at the Champions League final which involved Liverpool fans last week.

 

"That was just the latest example. What other set of fans steal tickets from their fellow supporters or out of the hands of children? We know what happened in Athens, and Liverpool fans were the cause of most of the trouble there.

 

"There have been 25 incidents involving Liverpool fans away from home since 2003 and these are in the report -- most teams' supporters do not cause any trouble at all."

 

Problems occurred at the Champions League final when fans with forged tickets and even without any ticket gained entry to the Olympic Stadium for the match against AC Milan, while dozens of fans with genuine tickets were refused entry.

 

When Liverpool fans did try to gain entry the situation threatened to escalate out of control and the Greek police fired tear gas and used batons.

 

Liverpool have submitted their own report to UEFA which criticises the security arrangements for the final.

 

Gaillard added: "You must ask yourself why at the same match, with the same conditions, there was no trouble with the Milan fans -- only the Liverpool fans."

 

Liverpool fans were held responsible for the disaster at the 1985 European Cup final at the Heysel Stadium in Brussels when 39 mainly Italian fans died after a wall collapsed following a charge by Liverpool fans before the match against Juventus.

 

The tragedy led to English clubs being banned from European competition for five years.

Guardian

[AtticusFinch 10]

"The two groups of supporters have a tradition of good behaviour and at this point we are expecting that to continue." - UEFA spokesman William Gaillard, 23rd May

"The incidents involving Liverpool fans have been well known to us before the trouble at the Champions League final which involved Liverpool fans last week. That was just the latest example." - UEFA spokesman William Gaillard, 3rd June

 

:huh: :huh:

[bladesufc1 10]

Uefa have criticised Liverpool fans' behaviour

A damning report by European football's governing body says Liverpool fans are the worst-behaved in Europe. :hihi: (we already knew this)

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/l/liverpool/6717793.stm

[LFCMadPaul 10]

Uefa have criticised Liverpool fans' behaviour

A damning report by European football's governing body says Liverpool fans are the worst-behaved in Europe. :hihi: (we already knew this)

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/l/liverpool/6717793.stm

The reason there is never any bad press/reports regarding Sheff Utd fans in Europe is simple...... They are never there :hihi: :hihi:

[LFCMadPaul 10]

By the way. Why open another thread on this subject when someone has recently just started one??