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Does the government bend over backwards for the Muslim community?  

58 members have voted

  1. 1. Does the government bend over backwards for the Muslim community?

    • Yes, please state why
      32
    • No, people who say this are just thick & ignorant
      26


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Cant similar categories of people or groups be found in Capitalism ? or any form of Nationalism (beit Arab/Indian/Russian) ?

 

What about this fareast.

 

ZIONISM

 

DOMINIONISM

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However, to the 'Western' observer, in practice, there do seem to be some similarities.

 

In the Communist world there were several groups of people. There were the professional communists [the'hard-liners'] who were absolutely disciplined and would carry out any order given, in the U.S.S.R.or even abroad, even assassination-----to wit,Trotsky.

 

This relates to just about every government, secret organization, ideological club or terrorist group ever created.

 

Then there were the more typical party members who might have joined the party for idealistic reasons or for cynical ones e.g. to further their career.These people were in the majority as far as party membership was concerned and were mostly innocent, gentle or only fairly mildly corrupt.

 

Again this relates to just about any group of people.

 

Then, there 'the dupes' or 'the Infantile Left' as Lenin dubbed them. These were usually foreign to the Soviet Union but had 'fallen in love' with the whole concept.Famous people like G.B.Shaw visited the Soviet Union and were easily charmed by a smiling 'Uncle Joe' and pronounced everything, more or less, beyond reproach.The lesser fish joined Popular Fronts [organised and funded by the Soviet Union] and did all, apart from actually getting their hands dirty, to support the Communist cause, in various ways.

 

Once again.

 

Is there a parallel with the World of Islam today? Well, they certainly have their small group of fanatics.Like the Communists they would, apparently like to convert the rest of us to their way of life.They have their non-Islamic sympathisers.They have their 'charismatic' leaders as per Lenin and Stalin who can apparently do no wrong and are the very font of all wisdom-----

 

and, not least of all, they see the Western Democracies as decadent, out-of-date and a barrier to their version of a 'Brave New World'.They also have their non-Islamic fellow-travellers.

 

This is the only point specific to communism and Islam. But it also relates to most religions as well.

 

You just seem to have written a horoscope of ideologies a text that relates to them all. It could also relate to the BNP, Animal rights activists, anti-globalization protesters etc etc etc.

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Haven't we seen something similar in American actions during the course of the War on Terror (or the Long War)

 

 

 

 

Is this actually true, or another myth thats somehow become a supposed fact. They appear to have a problem with secularism, but secularism is hardly a product of modernity now is it ?

 

In my opinion it is true, although of course it depends on one's definition of 'modernity' and of what the Islamic fanatics are seeking to achieve. I believe that the return to a 'pure' form of Islam, based as far as possible upon a literal interpretation of the Koran, does involve a rejection of modernity, in particular of the scientific mode of thinking which has led to the transformation of the world in recent centuries. Its interesting that, some years ago, an Egyptian scientist questioned whether Islam was compatible with modern science (he thought it was an impediment to it) and was executed for daring even to raise the issue. The Taliban (who are so admired by many of these fanatics) are probably the best example of the rejection of modernity, but there are many others. The fact that Islam is the only one of the major religions which has not been secularised is also interesting in this context.

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The fact that Islam is the only one of the major religions which has not been secularised is also interesting in this context.

 

Iraq was secularised under Saddam actually, and so is Leabonon today.

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I think 4U2NV and El Mariachi are missing a lot out, either deliberately or through lack of knowledge.

 

Capitalism is not an ideology. There is no one central belief in a world-wide system.There is no equivalent of the Koran or Das Kapital which all loyal followers must believe in .

 

The Zionists, for example, have been in control of one small country for about 50 years; they hardly present a world-wide threat----the sheer lack of numbers belie that idea.

 

Even the way that children are reared in the Islamic world and were reared in the Communist world are very similar:- no opposite view allowed, the denunciation of infidels[ or 'enemies of the people'] and just the general life-long 'brainwashing'.

 

I can't think either of a world-wide ideology [or two ideologies] that had such contempt for life in the Western democracies , in general.

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Downtroad,

 

Well, the state of Iraq was secularised, as is Turkey, of course but I'm not sure if that is what Lord Chaverly meant.

 

Britain is a secular state but Christianity has a far, far looser grip on life here than Islam has on its followers.

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Capitalism is not an ideology. There is no one central belief in a world-wide system.There is no equivalent of the Koran or Das Kapital which all loyal followers must believe in .

 

 

Capitalism is an ideology. An ideology is merely a collection of ideas, belief-system or world view. You don't need a manual.

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I think 4U2NV and El Mariachi are missing a lot out, either deliberately or through lack of knowledge.

 

Capitalism is not an ideology. There is no one central belief in a world-wide system.There is no equivalent of the Koran or Das Kapital which all loyal followers must believe in .

 

The Zionists, for example, have been in control of one small country for about 50 years; they hardly present a world-wide threat----the sheer lack of numbers belie that idea.

 

Even the way that children are reared in the Islamic world and were reared in the Communist world are very similar:- no opposite view allowed, the denunciation of infidels[ or 'enemies of the people'] and just the general life-long 'brainwashing'.

 

I can't think either of a world-wide ideology [or two ideologies] that had such contempt for life in the Western democracies , in general.

 

Come again, capitalism is not an ideology ?

Well I dont think we're going to make much headway when we cant even agree on what an ideology is. :rolleyes:

 

ofcourse Capitalism is an ideology, along with democracy and any other 'acy' and 'ism' under the sun.

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Downtroad,

 

Well, the state of Iraq was secularised, as is Turkey, of course but I'm not sure if that is what Lord Chaverly meant.

 

Britain is a secular state but Christianity has a far, far looser grip on life here than Islam has on its followers.

 

Quite so Fareast. As I understand it, the de facto separation of church and state contracts the basic tenets of Islam, which embrace virtually all aspects of social and personal life. This is what the extreme Islamists seem to be saying. Many countries in the Middle East in the post-war era did indeed reject Islam in favour of modern secularist doctrines, such as state socialism and nationalism, but disillusionment with these doctrines seems to have led to a resurgence of belief in Islamic ideals. My own view is that pursuit of these ideals will prove to be a dead end, but we probably have a long way to go before the Islamic resurgence burns itself out.

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Downtroad,

 

Well, you're correct in a limited sort of way but I don't see the Animal Rights people ....et al ...as having a 'world view'. Their focus is much narrower.The point about the Islamists and the Communists is that they are [or were] in control of quite powerful countries, have[or, again,had]millions of disciplined followers, all educated and brainwashed in a very similar fashion as to beliefs,all united in their hatred and/or contempt for the Western way of life, centrally controlled with the 'message' being given out weekly via mosques or party meetings in their thousands and the dominance of the Charismatic founders of the movement.

 

The only comparable set-up, I think, has been National Socialism and whereas the Communists and the Islamists seem to regard anyone as convertible material, I'm sure the Nazis were not interested in converting everyone in the world!

 

However, if you can see no difference between the Animal Rights movement or whatever and the international aspects of Islam or Communism, then I don't suppose whatever anyone says will persuade you otherwise.

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When you are talking about communism here, you are actually meaning 'Stalinism', the warped ideaology that held sway in the Warsaw Pact countries until recently.

 

The basic difference I think is that they both held their follows in line by way by misleading them.

Even during the worst excesses of stalinism, the majority of the people thought it was for the common good (even the people in the labour camps).

They thought they were doing it all for international socialism and Utopia.

 

The followers of organised Islam, even during its worst excesses, think they are doing it for the common good (espescially the the suicide bombers)

They think they are doing it all for international Islam and Utopia.

 

In the first place the people were conned into thinking they were following socialism

In the second place the people are being conned into thinking they are following the word of God.

 

They were/are both massive political organisations to keep the people under control.

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