Did Jesus ever exist?

[Crayfish 10]

Like cocaine, but less fashionable. Wouldn't see Grahame crawling up Kate Moss's nose. Although I'd like to see that.

[Heeley tyke 10]

Like cocaine, but less fashionable. Wouldn't see Grahame crawling up Kate Moss's nose. Although I'd like to see that.

 

Yeah, that wouldn't be something to be sneezed at!!

[Mr Goose 10]

Get four people to talk about the same event and as we can see from the forum, you get four different accounts. That's what happens in real life and that is one way we know the Bible is true to life and not edited.

 

Hold it! (I'm getting tired of this tho)

 

Are you saying that because the bible is filled with internal contradictions, obvious copies from different myths and bits of incorrect science - this is proof that it correct ?

 

It is also true that people make up stories for thier own ends and cobble together selective evidence from many sources - but surely you cannot say "That's what happens in real life and that is one way we know is true"

[Mr Goose 10]

To sum up -

 

The only thing we know about the bible for sure is that it is self-contradictory, it is ONLY based on scientific understanding present in bronze age society and ONLY contain moral statements which are either

 

1. Lifted from the ancient Greek

or

2. Very unpleasant in its support for homophobia, misogyny, murder and the slave trade

 

Therefore (lets all take a step back)

 

It, and the stories of god and jesus, are just human constructions, with all the normal editorial weaknesses, with NO supernatural involvement.

 

If it was, in ANY way, the word of "god" it would contain at least one message which would not have logically arisen from the human society it was written in.

 

And it does not.

[sccsux 10]

And that Mr. Whiskers sums up today's society.

 

That's religion for you:hihi:

[nick2 10]

I also find it very hard to believe that the bible we have today is exactly the way it was written and it hasn't been tweaked by the church to suit their needs.

[Sheffalways 10]

Did J***s ever exist?

 

Well, piece together the evidence in this historical jigsaw -

 

http://pages.ca.inter.net/~oblio/puzzle1.htm

 

- click on "Next piece" for the pattern

 

This is a semi serious issue - should this be used in RE Classes at schools?

 

Honk

 

After reading The Da Vinci Code, which is a great book, same as Angels and Demonds both by Dan Brown. Then I was intreged about what I learnt so now I am reading The Holy Blood and The Holy Grail and there is evidence to support that J***s did exisit with other scriptures and scrolls other than the Gospils. The book is long but good, it is worth a read but at the end of the day everyone believes what they want, so at the end of the day it is up to the individual what they believe.

[Grahame 10]

To sum up -

 

The only thing we know about the bible for sure is that it is self-contradictory, it is ONLY based on scientific understanding present in bronze age society and ONLY contain moral statements which are either

 

1. Lifted from the ancient Greek

or

2. Very unpleasant in its support for homophobia, misogyny, murder and the slave trade

 

Therefore (lets all take a step back)

 

It, and the stories of god and jesus, are just human constructions, with all the normal editorial weaknesses, with NO supernatural involvement.

 

If it was, in ANY way, the word of "god" it would contain at least one message which would not have logically arisen from the human society it was written in.

 

And it does not.

 

In 2 Timothy chapter 3 verse 16 we read, “All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching the truth, rebuking error, correcting faults, and giving instruction for right living so that the person who serves God may be fully qualified and equipped to do every kind of good deed.”

 

It begins with an excellent synopsis of the beginning of the world. The fact Moses could not read our modern text books indicates divine inspiration. Please give me your source for saying that Moses lifted the evolutionary process of the earth as outlined in the Bible from Greek mythology.

 

 

The birth of Jesus had been prophesied many years earlier; again please give me the Greek source.

 

Now read this passage and tell me

(1) How this message arose from the society in which it was written.

(2) Try telling me there was no such person as Nicodemus and that it was all made up.

(3) The concept of someone being born a second time was a completely alien concept.

(4) Tell me where in Greek Mythology we find the son of God prophesying his own death.

 

John chapter 3 verse 1

There was a Jewish leader named Nicodemus, who belonged to the party of the Pharisees. One night he went to Jesus and said to him, "Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher sent by God. No one could perform the miracles you are doing unless God were with him." Jesus answered, "I am telling you the truth: no one can see the Kingdom of God without being born again." "How can a grown man be born again?" Nicodemus asked. "He certainly cannot enter his mother's womb and be born a second time!"

 

"I am telling you the truth," replied Jesus, "that no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit. A person is born physically of human parents, but is born spiritually of the Spirit. Do not be surprised because I tell you that you must all be born again.

 

The wind blows wherever it wishes; you hear the sound it makes, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. It is like that with everyone who is born of the Spirit."

 

"How can this be?" asked Nicodemus. Jesus answered, "You are a great teacher in Israel, and you don't know this? I am telling you the truth: we speak of what we know and report what we have seen, yet none of you is willing to accept our message. You do not believe me when I tell you about the things of this world; how will you ever believe me, then, when I tell you about the things of heaven? And no one has ever gone up to heaven except the Son of Man, who came down from heaven."

 

As Moses lifted up the bronze snake on a pole in the desert, in the same way the Son of Man must be lifted up, so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. For God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not die but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to be its judge, but to be its saviour.

 

 

The Jews who know their own history accept the teaching and accuracy of the Old Testament, there is the authentication.

 

G.

[Gypsy Hack 10]

Like cocaine, but less fashionable. Wouldn't see Grahame crawling up Kate Moss's nose. Although I'd like to see that.

There's plenty more chance of Kate Moss crawling up Grahame's nose, methinks.

 

*ducks*

[Grahame 10]

There's plenty more chance of Kate Moss crawling up Grahame's nose, methinks.

 

*ducks*

 

I think you are right. About Kate Moss getting up my nose I mean.

[Mr Goose 10]

It begins with an excellent synopsis of the beginning of the world. The fact Moses could not read our modern text books indicates divine inspiration. Please give me your source for saying that Moses lifted the evolutionary process of the earth as outlined in the Bible from Greek mythology.

 

The birth of Jesus had been prophesied many years earlier; again please give me the Greek source.

 

Now read this passage and tell me

(1) How this message arose from the society in which it was written.

(2) Try telling me there was no such person as Nicodemus and that it was all made up.

(3) The concept of someone being born a second time was a completely alien concept.

(4) Tell me where in Greek Mythology we find the son of God prophesying his own death.

.

 

Wrong on many counts I'm affraid

 

> It begins with an excellent synopsis of the beginning of the world.

 

All of the religious views on the start of the world are wrong, but by **real** reselective ading you can get them to say anything - most religions have lines along the lines of "before there was nothing and choas"

 

The only way you get the bible to resemble any sort of science is to use a very perverse interpretation. But dont you see - that is what religion is all about - you yourself do it. Despite the multiple and clear statements that I cited that jesus clearly believed in Hell, you chose your own select interpretation. (which does not include hell)

 

> The birth of Jesus had been prophesied many years earlier

 

Yes - in the re-edited bible. This is like saying that your own arguemnt is evidence of the truth of your arguemnt!

 

> The concept of someone being born a second time was a completely alien concept. Tell me where in Greek Mythology we find the son of God prophesying his own death.

 

There are many regional sources for all the bible myths - the flood, the savior figure etc etc.

 

I accept that they are not all "greek", but I will I'm sure you have heard of Mithraism. This predates Christianity (in two distinctly different forms, Persian and Greco-Roman).

 

"Mithras" was the human born son of a God, a savior figure who fortold his own death, and his believers thought that they would gain eternal life (though in this religion it took seven deaths/births to get all the way to heaven). Mithras had some sort of last communal meal, and was betrayed by a follower. Different versions of Mithraism had him "died and was resurrected". (Also, some versions of Mithraism featured his virgin birth)

 

 

Grahame, in all this debate, I am not getting at you - I'm just asking people to see the bible for what it is - a set of stories which reflected the socio-political culture at the time. Nothing more. I'm sorry

[Grahame 10]

Wrong on many counts I'm affraid

 

> It begins with an excellent synopsis of the beginning of the world.

 

All of the religious views on the start of the world are wrong, but by **real** reselective ading you can get them to say anything - most religions have lines along the lines of "before there was nothing and choas"

 

The only way you get the bible to resemble any sort of science is to use a very perverse interpretation. But dont you see - that is what religion is all about - you yourself do it. Despite the multiple and clear statements that I cited that jesus clearly believed in Hell, you chose your own select interpretation. (which does not include hell)

 

> The birth of Jesus had been prophesied many years earlier

 

Yes - in the re-edited bible. This is like saying that your own arguemnt is evidence of the truth of your arguemnt!

 

> The concept of someone being born a second time was a completely alien concept. Tell me where in Greek Mythology we find the son of God prophesying his own death.

 

There are many regional sources for all the bible myths - the flood, the savior figure etc etc.

 

I accept that they are not all "greek", but I will I'm sure you have heard of Mithraism. This predates Christianity (in two distinctly different forms, Persian and Greco-Roman).

 

"Mithras" was the human born son of a God, a savior figure who fortold his own death, and his believers thought that they would gain eternal life (though in this religion it took seven deaths/births to get all the way to heaven). Mithras had some sort of last communal meal, and was betrayed by a follower. Different versions of Mithraism had him "died and was resurrected". (Also, some versions of Mithraism featured his virgin birth)

 

 

Grahame, in all this debate, I am not getting at you - I'm just asking people to see the bible for what it is - a set of stories which reflected the socio-political culture at the time. Nothing more. I'm sorry

 

We have a thread on Mithras, I suggest you read it.

 

I'm not answering the rest of your post for fear I might loose my temper.

 

I back up everything I say with evidence and my reasons for it. You haven't given any examples to back up what you say, you just air your mish-mash of incorrect, ill-informed opinions and pass them off as fact.

 

To be honest I don't know how someone who obviously knows nothing about Christianity except for some garbled nonsense put out by atheists can sit there and preach to us Christians. You haven't a clue what you are talking about when it comes to Christianity and I don't know how you have the cheek to presume you can go preaching the gospel of mammon as though it is the Gospel of God.

 

 

G.