What do you think about suicide?

[Halibut 12]

You were slated for that?

Its the most sensible thing Ive seen for a long time, its just common sense so .. whats wrong with it? whats wrong with saying that? How can anyone find anything wrong with it?

 

Because it carries the implication that the would be suicide is thinking rationally and 'weighing up the odds' - and then 'doing it anyway and sod those I leave behind'.

[ANGELUS 10]

You were slated for that?

Its the most sensible thing Ive seen for a long time, its just common sense so .. whats wrong with it? whats wrong with saying that? How can anyone find anything wrong with it?

 

Thanks jabbers mate

I'm just waiting for the nay-sayers to prove me wrong though - I'll give it 30 minutes lol

[Jabberwocky 46]

Because it carries the implication that the would be suicide is thinking rationally and 'weighing up the odds' - and then 'doing it anyway and sod those I leave behind'.

 

I see your point.

I suppose you have to redefine the concept of suicide, some people go to great and complex lengths to kill themselves, and I suppose that writing a note, then taking pills and hanging themselves could be seen as acting rationally. Others simply leap under a bus as if on impulse.

 

Actually Ive never thought about it before. Youve got me thinking now.

 

 

Yes it hurts my little brain too.

[ANGELUS 10]

Because it carries the implication that the would be suicide is thinking rationally and 'weighing up the odds' - and then 'doing it anyway and sod those I leave behind'.

 

I'll set a scene for you from my past - and you tell me, as with any nay-sayer on here who likes to shoot people down in flames:

 

Picture the scene, my friends and I were drinking out in a pub in Kiveton Park - it was one of my mates mum's birthday - her 40th to be exact.

 

NOW.. nothing had gone wrong on the day, and I know the lad who's mum it was had some problems with drugs and what not but we had collectively sorted him out by getting him off them and also straightened him out like proper mates do to other friends in times of crisis.

 

SO - further along the evening, we all were having a good time, my mate who's mums 40th it was that we were celebrating - decided to leave us as he had to go home for something which was just round the corner from the pub - so naturally, we said see you in a bit..

 

Now this might seem normal to some people - the twist in the story and something that I will hate this person for till my dying day..

 

He decided to go and hang himself from his staircase with his belt - on his mums 40th birthday - I know this, because I watched his mum find him and cut him down lifeless where she found him, because she found him first along with his mates who he had let down by this selfish action

 

I will say it once, and I will say it again:

 

Why pick the one time when its so special for his mum?

Her 40th birthday?

And for-ever more - her birthday will always be reminded of the day he took his own life.

 

SELFISH .. pure and simple.

 

And its the same for people killing themselves where family can find them, jumping from bridges on the parkway, humber bridge etc.. etc..

 

Its making a public statement what you intend to do - intended to give them a lot of goulish 'glory' in their final time of their life.

 

Selfishness through and through.

[ANGELUS 10]

You leap under a bus - people will see you do it and the driver/passengers will potentially be scared for life.. causing chaos

 

You leap under a train - ditto again

 

The same goes for jumping from a bridge or hanging yourself on a public place - all designed to inflict the maximum 'look at me' factor.

[Halibut 12]

I see your point.

I suppose you have to redefine the concept of suicide, some people go to great and complex lengths to kill themselves, and I suppose that writing a note, then taking pills and hanging themselves could be seen as acting rationally. Others simply leap under a bus as if on impulse.

 

Actually Ive never thought about it before. Youve got me thinking now.

 

 

Yes it hurts my little brain too.

 

I believe it's the case that very, very few people ever reach a 'rational' decision to take their own lives - and that the great majority do so under very distorted thinking - maybe due to depression or other mental illness or disability, perhaps while drunk or drugged.

Of course the after-effects can be viewed as consequences of a selfish act, but the intention is often the product of altruistic (albeit wrong) thinking - i.e. 'they'll all be better off without me'' - or thoughts to that effect.

[Cyclone 10]

For suicide to be selfish it would have to be the action of someone who was well and rational.

It's no more selfish than having any other mental illness.

Is someone selfish who becomes depressed? Or has mood swings, or whatever other mental illness you care to think of, or are they just unwell and in need of help?

[Dozy 11]

I'll set a scene for you from my past - and you tell me, as with any nay-sayer on here who likes to shoot people down in flames:

 

Picture the scene, my friends and I were drinking out in a pub in Kiveton Park - it was one of my mates mum's birthday - her 40th to be exact.

 

NOW.. nothing had gone wrong on the day, and I know the lad who's mum it was had some problems with drugs and what not but we had collectively sorted him out by getting him off them and also straightened him out like proper mates do to other friends in times of crisis.

 

SO - further along the evening, we all were having a good time, my mate who's mums 40th it was that we were celebrating - decided to leave us as he had to go home for something which was just round the corner from the pub - so naturally, we said see you in a bit..

 

Now this might seem normal to some people - the twist in the story and something that I will hate this person for till my dying day..

 

He decided to go and hang himself from his staircase with his belt - on his mums 40th birthday - I know this, because I watched his mum find him and cut him down lifeless where she found him, because she found him first along with his mates who he had let down by this selfish action

 

I will say it once, and I will say it again:

 

Why pick the one time when its so special for his mum?

Her 40th birthday?

And for-ever more - her birthday will always be reminded of the day he took his own life.

 

SELFISH .. pure and simple.

 

And its the same for people killing themselves where family can find them, jumping from bridges on the parkway, humber bridge etc.. etc..

 

Its making a public statement what you intend to do - intended to give them a lot of goulish 'glory' in their final time of their life.

 

Selfishness through and through.

 

 

Surely if you "had collectively sorted him out by getting him off them and also straightened him out like proper mates do to other friends in times of crisis", then he wouldn't have felt the need to kill himself?

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's your fault he killed himself, but I can't help thinking that an awful lot of your anger and hate could be caused by suppressed guilt because you do feel you are to blame somehow. Which isn't true - people are ultimately responsible for their own actions, if someone is determined to kill themselves, then there is little anybody can do to stop them.

 

And you are making the mistake of thinking that people who are suicidally depressed think rationally and logically. One of the symptoms of depression is "Feelings of worthlessness". If someone feels like they're worth marginally less than shi*t on a shoe, they're hardly like to think that their death is going to affect other people, except possible to relieve them of a burden.

 

Condemning someone who commits suicide whilst depressed for being "selfish" is a bit like blaming someone with a cold for coughing and sneezing.

 

Dozy

[ANGELUS 10]

Surely if you "had collectively sorted him out by getting him off them and also straightened him out like proper mates do to other friends in times of crisis", then he wouldn't have felt the need to kill himself?

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's your fault he killed himself, but I can't help thinking that an awful lot of your anger and hate could be caused by suppressed guilt because you do feel you are to blame somehow. Which isn't true - people are ultimately responsible for their own actions, if someone is determined to kill themselves, then there is little anybody can do to stop them.

 

And you are making the mistake of thinking that people who are suicidally depressed think rationally and logically. One of the symptoms of depression is "Feelings of worthlessness". If someone feels like they're worth marginally less than shi*t on a shoe, they're hardly like to think that their death is going to affect other people, except possible to relieve them of a burden.

 

Condemning someone who commits suicide whilst depressed for being "selfish" is a bit like blaming someone with a cold for coughing and sneezing.

 

Dozy

 

We did sort him out - we got him to accept he had a problem, got him away from his drug dealing and taking friends, and cleaned him up and get him into a state where he was away from drugs and the damage caused by them which was also upsetting his family.

 

We dont know what went through his head that night, god only knows - but to do that on his mums 40th birthday, is something that I will never forgive him for.

 

He could have picked any other day to do it - so why did he pick that day of all days possible?

 

I have no guilt at all for what happened - we did everything we possible could as friends to sort him out and at the end of the day - people are responsible for their own stupidity and selfish actions.

 

I have been depressed in the past, and I have thought about ending it all, especially after the year last year, and when my ex-fiancee told me that I wouldnt be a father to my daughter after 6 months in - so I was on the edge - the difference is that when you stand there contemplating such actions - you have to ask yourself - is it really worth doing what you are going to do?

 

The answer as always is NO

 

I'm not religious - many people can tell you that on here - but I do believe we have been given an opportunity to enjoy this funny little world of ours - and people that throw that away are not only cowardly and selfish to throw something away, a life, that someone who has had theirs taken away from them could have had in return but havent.

 

Its selfish - whichever way people want to look at it and put a label on it and say 'they were depressed or not thinking straight' - you DO have a choice to end your life - been there, chosen not to do it

[Dozy 11]

We did sort him out - we got him to accept he had a problem, got him away from his drug dealing and taking friends, and cleaned him up and get him into a state where he was away from drugs and the damage caused by them which was also upsetting his family.

 

Sorry, but people who are sorted out seldom kill themselves. You might have stopped the drug taking, but there were obviously underlying problems that you knew nothing about - you said yourself you didn't know what he was thinking:

 

We dont know what went through his head that night, god only knows

 

I have no guilt at all for what happened - we did everything we possible could as friends to sort him out and at the end of the day - people are responsible for their own stupidity and selfish actions.

 

Just because you are angry with him (a common response in bereavement, not just suicide) doesn't mean you can't also feel guilty. Guilt is as a common a response to bereavement as grief.

 

I have been depressed in the past, and I have thought about ending it all, especially after the year last year, and when my ex-fiancee told me that I wouldnt be a father to my daughter after 6 months in - so I was on the edge - the difference is that when you stand there contemplating such actions - you have to ask yourself - is it really worth doing what you are going to do?

 

The answer as always is NO

..

 

Its selfish - whichever way people want to look at it and put a label on it and say 'they were depressed or not thinking straight' - you DO have a choice to end your life - been there, chosen not to do it

 

You must surely realise that there are degrees of depression? I'm not trying to minimise the depth of depression you were feeling, but if you could truly reason "is it really worth doing what you are going to do?" and come up with:

"The answer as always is NO", then you were not suicidally depressed.

 

Someone who is really suicidal doesn't think in terms of the validity of their decision. All they want is for the pain and hurt to stop - because they can't bear it any more. And often the only way you can see to do that is to cease to exist - no more life, no more pain. When you're that far down, it really isn't a simple matter of choice.

 

I'm not religious - many people can tell you that on here - but I do believe we have been given an opportunity to enjoy this funny little world of ours - and people that throw that away are not only cowardly and selfish to throw something away, a life, that someone who has had theirs taken away from them could have had in return but havent.

 

My interpretation of the above is that you expect everybody else to share your values. A bit like some women who can't have babies condemning other women who have abortions. They want a baby, therefore it's wrong for anybody else to get rid of one - irrespective of the circumstances.

 

Just because you came to the conclusion that life was worth living, doesn't mean that everybody else has to - their circumstances are different from yours, and it's unreasonable to expect them to act in the same way as you.

 

Dozy

[Halibut 12]

Sorry, but people who are sorted out seldom kill themselves. You might have stopped the drug taking, but there were obviously underlying problems that you knew nothing about - you said yourself you didn't know what he was thinking:

 

 

 

 

 

Just because you are angry with him (a common response in bereavement, not just suicide) doesn't mean you can't also feel guilty. Guilt is as a common a response to bereavement as grief.

 

 

 

You must surely realise that there are degrees of depression? I'm not trying to minimise the depth of depression you were feeling, but if you could truly reason "is it really worth doing what you are going to do?" and come up with:

"The answer as always is NO", then you were not suicidally depressed.

 

Someone who is really suicidal doesn't think in terms of the validity of their decision. All they want is for the pain and hurt to stop - because they can't bear it any more. And often the only way you can see to do that is to cease to exist - no more life, no more pain. When you're that far down, it really isn't a simple matter of choice.

 

 

 

My interpretation of the above is that you expect everybody else to share your values. A bit like some women who can't have babies condemning other women who have abortions. They want a baby, therefore it's wrong for anybody else to get rid of one - irrespective of the circumstances.

 

Just because you came to the conclusion that life was worth living, doesn't mean that everybody else has to - their circumstances are different from yours, and it's unreasonable to expect them to act in the same way as you.

 

Dozy

 

A really well put together response to ANGELUS's post Dozy. I think the last two paragraphs summarise things very neatly.

[40summat 10]

Angelus, i think the reason you got some flak before was because you made your opinions known on a thread that had appeared about someone who had commited suicide that day.

I personally thought it was wrong to make comments on the selfishness of suicide on a thread which the 'victims' family or friends could read so soon after the death of that person.

I think you were 'slated' for being a tad insensetive on a thread on which people were showing sympathy for a tragic death, and not just for your views.