School Children's Finger Prints Taken Without Consent!

[pedr 10]

Well I don't actually know the technical details of the US system. The fact that they only have the forefinger of each hand (I believe) would severly limit the law enforcement uses they could put it to, even if the databases are compatible.

 

A fingerprint is, I suppose, a fingerprint. My argument is that the schools (and the Co-op) aren't actually taking fingerprints. They're creating a code from the characteristics of the finger scanned. This is different, technically. I don't believe it would be possible to reverse-engineer that code into an image of a fingerprint, nor would it be possible to use in court, or even for the purposes of crime investigation.

 

Now, people could find evidence to the contrary, but this is my understanding at present. It's not, actually, a fingerprint.

 

<thinks> Even the fact that the scan shows an image of a finger isn't actually evidence that a usable fingerprint is stored - it could quite well be displayed to check that the scan was accurate before processing into a code.

[AtticusFinch 10]

Even if you overlook the civil liberties aspect of this, the whole thing still doesn't stand up to reason. The fundamental principle of design is that you create the simplest system/object that will satisfy your task. Fingerprinting kids as a way of managing library book withdrawals and dinner orders is blatantly not the simplest system!

[pedr 10]

Even if you overlook the civil liberties aspect of this, the whole thing still doesn't stand up to reason. The fundamental principle of design is that you create the simplest system/object that will satisfy your task. Fingerprinting kids as a way of managing library book withdrawals and dinner orders is blatantly not the simplest system!

Why not?

 

A person always has their finger. A person does not always have a card. Cards can be lost. Cards can be stolen, if people think there's any value in them. Working on name and form group is time-consuming and can be fraudulent - particularly if this is used for the school meals issue I highlighted above. And make no mistake, bullying based on free school meals status is a problem, as is the theft of dinner money.

 

The system has potential added advantages. When I was at school, a register was taken twice a day. My mother is a high-school teacher and has to take a register (using a computer) for every class she teaches. I imagine that this is to better track attendance and combat truanting. Using a self-scan system reduces the teacher-time required for that register.

 

Now I have no real inside knowledge on this - I'm just trying to keep this on a factual basis and question some of the reactionary statements particularly in the linked piece which started the debate. If I am in error anywhere, I'd love to know - I just like things like this to be debated from the starting point of the facts

[melthebell 862]

Technology is going that way and there's nothing we can do to stop it.. have your children done something wrong? are they hiding from the police? in not what s the problem please?

 

by the time the kids are our age, nearly everything will be finger print

 

people dont like change its nothing to do withthe kids, just an excuse to moan about something else (OP not you just people in general)

 

********, were moving into a police state and people blindly accept EVERYTHING thats thrown at them, we can do something to stop it, we can refuse, we can tell them, we can strike, we can write letters, demo and direct action.

its nothing to do with technology its all to do with governments moving from the idea of everybodys innocent till proven guilty to now everybodys guilty till proven innocent.

so many people on here chant the same mantra "well ive got nothing to hide" i bet the jews, gays, gypsies, disabled etc all thought that before the nazi did their devious masterplan

DONT be a mushroom, think, learn, act

[Cyclone 10]

If a fingerprint can generate a unique code (it has to be unique to be of any value). Then a print lifted from a crime scene can have the same algorithm run and the code generated can then be compared with what is in the database.

 

It's pretty damn obvious that the process is repeatable otherwise it would have even less value than it currently does.

 

Whilst the schools may promise now that they are not sharing the information, what will you do if in 10 years the police collect all the databases and store the unique signatures...

 

PS - the police don't destroy finger prints collected, they don't even destroy your dna sample if for some reason you give one. Even if you are never charged, or are found not guilty, you are presumed guilty of something and your records are kept.

 

Add to that the fact that children are not capable of giving the consent required for the schools to do this (at least not before around the age of 13). And frankly it all stinks.

[Mentalmomma 10]

Its unbelievable what they seem to think they can get away with. We had a incident where one of our children came home once and was telling us they'd been playing mummies and daddies 'so to speak'. Apparently the teacher and her assitant were been the naughty children and getting the kiddies to pretend to be there own parents telling the teachers off. We found it very disturbing, one of the childrens mothers is a alcholic and they were apparently asking him to pretend to be mummy telling him off in different situations. It was as if they were trying to find out if anyone was beating there children, now don't get me wrong i am all for protecting children and jump to prevent harm to any little one, but the school in my eyes were out of order.

[pedr 10]

If a fingerprint can generate a unique code (it has to be unique to be of any value). Then a print lifted from a crime scene can have the same algorithm run and the code generated can then be compared with what is in the database.

 

It's pretty damn obvious that the process is repeatable otherwise it would have even less value than it currently does.

This may be true. It isn't necessarily true. I, personally, doubt it.

 

The reason it isn't necessarily true is that there is a difference between the process of digitising a fingerprint to a resolution which can be compared against the lower resolution/quality print lifted from an item and the process of scanning a finger so that when the finger is scanned a second time the same result is found.

 

The first is comparing two different samples, taken as physical images. The second is comparing the exact same data retrieval method.

 

Like I said, I could be wrong. But my assertions are more likely technologically than the alternative (and less costly in terms of processing and storage costs) so I remain to be convinced that this is a genuine threat in any meaningful sense.

[mrplodge 10]

I see no problem. If parents would spend more time stopping their kids smashing bus shelters etc rather than worrying about this we would all be a lot better off.

[irenewilde 10]

[quote=fred_notdead;2160191

ITS JUST A GAME

At one primary school children were told "Lets play the game of spies. Its just a game, so theres no need to tell your parents."

 

I absolutely do not believe this. Even if you thought for a moment that any teacher would try this, you're not trying to tell me that most of the children wouldn't go home and tell their parents anyway! You'd have to be daft to think you'd get away with it!

[Pooch_1 10]

Technology is going that way and there's nothing we can do to stop it.. have your children done something wrong? are they hiding from the police? in not what s the problem please?

 

by the time the kids are our age, nearly everything will be finger print

 

people dont like change its nothing to do withthe kids, just an excuse to moan about something else (OP not you just people in general)

 

The problem is the infringement of their personal and human rights. Before minors or non compus mentus people are photographed, then either the parents consent must be given in the case of children, or a relative or advocate of the non compus mentus person. we used to have to go through that rigmarole when we wanted to photograph vulnerable patients at the hospital, for identification reasons, should they wander off, or be in the wrong room when medication was given out. I am appalled and disgusted at the councils education department for allowing this to happen.

[melthebell 862]

I am appalled and disgusted at the councils education department for allowing this to happen.

but its a government directive innit? not a council one, i heard ALL schools would be asked to do it, not just sheffield ones

[Cyclone 10]

but its a government directive innit? not a council one, i heard ALL schools would be asked to do it, not just sheffield ones

 

No it isn't.

In fact the DFE have given out guidelines advising schools not to use such technology without seeking informed consent.