Schoolgirl loses veil legal case

[tab1 10]

Good post Zamo.

[Mr1chop 10]

International affairs aren't so simple but what the hell... let's run with your example anyway.

 

So, let's say that one of these youths is the top bad boy. He has a gang that rules their neighbourhood through fear and, about once a week, they give some innocent granny a slap in order to assert their authority and remind the neighbourhood who's in charge. You are from another neighbourhood and hear about this and decided to go in to sort them out - although some say you are only doing it because she is 98 y.o. and you're after the inheritance.

 

So you round up some mates and go steaming in. In the process of sparing this one person a hiding you actually end up beating up five innocent people who get caught in the crossfire. Never mind, you have done a good thing and stand on the back of your mates pick-up truck and declare "mission accomplished!"

 

Only, then the dust begins to settle. You find out that the neighbourhood actually has loads of horrible gangs and, whilst the lot you took out were bad, they actually kept the others in check and as such the violence down. Without the dominant gang maintaining calm, the neighbourhood descends into anarchy as all the other gangs fight for power.

 

So, to save one person from harm - for noble reasons, even though nobody believes you - you hurt five yourself and then left the neighbourhood in a state of civil unrest where attacks on innocent people are ten times what they used to be. Local shops are closing down as the people with any money get out. Bin men refuse to collect rubbish and buses won't go through the estate. It is a complete mess.

 

You of course argue that it isn't your fault that the gangs are doing all this but we all know that it is a direct result of what you did. You stuck your nose in and made a bad situation worse and everyone is asking why? It wasn't even your neighbourhood to sort out. It is either a genuine mistake by an idiot who didn't know better or you are a scumbag yourself who was just after the inheritance all along.

 

So basically you are saying if its not in your back yard turn your head and walk away?, I would like to bet that most muggers in this country who would attack another person would also be able to give you a kicking if he wanted, but would that fact make you turn your head away from the suffering of this 1 old lady at the time you were walking bye?

Yes there might be innocent people hurt in the turmoil of "other gangs" fighting between each other but if the ultimate goal is achieved and eventually peace and harmony is bestowed upon the neighbourhood in the long run then fine.

History proves that the turning point for the good has happened after major hardships, wars and revolutions for most society’s, Eg, Spain, Portugal , England, France, USA, and the list goes on.

So when the gangs have either been killed, imprisoned, or made to see the error of there ways and altered there actions, then yes it would have been right to go into this neighbourhood

Peace is often won by means of war and violence,

[Mr1chop 10]

It might be your belief that democracy is the way to go, that women shouldn't wear veils, that arranged marriages are wrong etc, etc. I probably share most of your values because we are the product of the same culture but other people won't agree because they are from a different culture. If you want other cultures to leave ours be then we should extend the same courtesy.QUOTE]

 

First, I have no problem at all with women wearing veils, or with arranged marriages in there own country and culture.

I have never said I want other cultures to leave this country, just some segments.

I like other cultures but I couldn’t eat a whole one.

[Waffer 10]

This debate seems to have moved on somewhat from the original thread.

[Waffer 10]

The other point of course is that she is appealing the decision......Silly girl .. Who is really behind this, and what is there motivation.

[Zamo 10]

It might be your belief that democracy is the way to go, that women shouldn't wear veils, that arranged marriages are wrong etc, etc. I probably share most of your values because we are the product of the same culture but other people won't agree because they are from a different culture. If you want other cultures to leave ours be then we should extend the same courtesy.QUOTE]

 

First, I have no problem at all with women wearing veils, or with arranged marriages in there own country and culture.

I have never said I want other cultures to leave this country, just some segments.

I like other cultures but I couldn’t eat a whole one.

 

If one of those segments were forcefully imposing their will on us using guns, helicopter gunships and tanks then I guess they would be one of the segments you'd want to leave? I imagine that is just how the Iraqis feel.

 

How can you complain about (some) people from other cultures impacting on our way of life whilst arguing it is OK for us to invade someone elses country to impose our will on them? It is a double standard.

[daftlad 11]

The other point of course is that she is appealing the decision......Silly girl .. Who is really behind this, and what is there motivation.

 

 

 

She probably appealing so the lawyer can milk the system again asits being done with legal aid. The lawyers are probably rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of this.

[Mr1chop 10]

 

If one of those segments were forcefully imposing their will on us using guns, helicopter gunships and tanks then I guess they would be one of the segments you'd want to leave? I imagine that is just how the Iraqis feel.

 

How can you complain about (some) people from other cultures impacting on our way of life whilst arguing it is OK for us to invade someone elses country to impose our will on them? It is a double standard.

 

You seem to think that the majority of Iraqis wanted to keep Sadam, yes the population may be well ****** at the present situation but that is the effect of Islamic extremists and foreign Islamic governments funding and supplying either side Sunni and Shia terror groups which kill and attack Muslims and non Muslims alike.

If there was not this foreign input into the terrorist’s hands do you not think that this would have been over by now and the Iraqi people would now be getting on with a life of freedom and democracy?

 

I only want the people to leave this country who would want to change it for the worse, i.e.; making this country just like the one they left for here and now they are here and settled with a few quid in the bank want to turn it into the country they arrived from.

 

If the extremists, who would have this country under Sharia law wanted to make us all equal, make all our lives better then I could understand but they don’t.

[classychic 10]

I have read some of the comments in reagrds to muslim women and the veil, how the view by many is that the women are surpressed by their religion, the muslim men and ideals. All I can say is that the amount of respect a muslim women recieves not only from her family but also the wider muslim community is immense. For example the typical westren magazine aimned at teenagers promotes insecurities within women about their body figure, ther hair how to get the perfect man, or the classic 'flat tum in a week', within the muslim community a women is respected for her inner beauty, her sense of respect for herself, her love for her family and friends . Another example would be the poor women who feel the need to be 'sex objects' all their lives they are trying to live up to an image that has been created by a man. The women want big breasts, perfect figures, the perfect pout to please who ?, not themselves but a man. So tell me how are these women in the western world portrayed as empowered when they are being controlled by images created from the media. When women pose for theses tacky lads mags how much respect do you think the man odling her breasts is going to give her,do you think hes sitting there thinking how intellegent she is? I very much so doubt it.

To me the most dangerous message we can give to our young women are the messages portrayed in the media, speak to any young girl and they will highlight the fact that the media mirrors young girls aspirations, I mean please Jordan has become a role model, that shows the dire state of what our girls have as role models.

Now think about the eduacted muslim girl, who makes the informed choice of wearing the veil. She wheres it because she understands that there is more to life than living up to an image that the media portrays as 'normal'. The muslim woman who chooses to wear a veil has an uplifting aura about her as she is more focused on her desires as a women. The amount of respect a muslim women gets is immense, a muslim women is not told shes fat and needs a figure like Kate Moss, but is admired by her husband for the person she is.

I don't where the veil, but all around me I see young girls of the new generation who are clever, intellegent, and educated making the choice for no one but themselves to where the veil, they choose to reject the sterotype of a women and choose to have greater self respect for themselves. These women are not surpressed but in fact free mentally from the pressures of being a typical western women. Look at the headlines in a muslim newspaper they are celebrating the fact that there has been a rise in girls going to univeristy by 65% yet the Westren newspapers are discussing size zero. The question I pose to you all is who would you call surpressed???????????

[rubydazzler 11]

I'm trying really hard to understand this stance about the veil, as you may have realised from my previous posts on this subject. As a liberated female of the 60s era, I'm really struggling with it.

 

To me, someone swathed from my sight head to toe in black with a small mesh slit to see through, effectively makes herself into a non person. The desired effect is to render the human within invisible. This figure could be anyone, even a man concealing evil intentions. Whether a woman is the most beautiful female on the planet or the plainest, she's just another woman to me. If I can't see her smile of recognition as she comes up to me, or her face, why would I speak or offer myself as a friend? To me it seems almost a rejection of me as a fellow person, that my fellowship is not wanted.

 

I know quite a few muslim women and most of them don't even wear a scarf, let alone a hijab, they certainly wouldn't wear a veil, and I don't see anyone disrespecting them or trying to make them feel small. I really don't understand how wearing a veil makes you appear more worthy of serious attention?

[mahonia 10]

Good:thumbsup: At last somthing to keep the PC people quiet

[Gypsy Hack 10]

Good:thumbsup: At last somthing to keep the PC people quiet

What the hell are you talking about, mate?

 

Anyway, regarding the veil, I see classychic's point about the stereotype of women that is reinforced by many teenage and glossy magazines, and the issues it causes. But that doesn't make the veil in any way positive.

 

To claim it as simply a 'free' choice ignores the religious and cultural pressures which can act on any person. The thing is, as well, for many women in the Muslim world this is simply not a free choice. There are areas in Iraq now, for instance, where women who go out into the street with their face uncovered are in grave danger, because of the extremist views that exist out there. Like it or not, the veil has become a symbol of oppression, and choosing to wear one is a tacit endorsement of such. I simply cannot respect a woman who would choose to wear one freely.

 

But, like I said, I have serious doubts about how 'free' these choices actually are.