Female Pakistani minister = murdered...

[upinwath 10]

I never said it was all Muslims there are obviously some who are not oppressed. But on the whole Muslim women are considered 2nd class citizens and have to do what they are told. I fail to see how people can deny this.

I have nothing against any religion. I just do not like to see injustice and people treated badly just because of their sex.

 

In what way are muslim women treated badly?

I don't disagree that in SOME muslim countries they are treated in a different way to men but it does follow that they are badly treated.

 

You could consider the way some white english 'men' treat their wives.

[upinwath 10]

Worth a read

[Cyclone 10]

I didn't mean in the press, I meant on here. There always seems to be a preponderance of male voices finding reasons to excuse these acts and not enough wholehearted condemnation. There's too much excusing of oppression and misguided religious fervour and not enough of 'this is just plain wrong and we won't put up with it any longer' imo.

 

As a survivor of the years of fighting for women's equality, it disappoints me that it looks as though we have the battle still to fight in some arenas.

 

I can condemn the person who did and their actions without having to condemn every person who follows the religion.

In much the same way i can condemn a Christian for blowing up an abortion clinic without having to condemn every single one of them and declaring that they are about to bring down civilisation as we know it.

[fr8neck 10]

=Cyclone;1994295]I can condemn the person who did and their actions without having to condemn every person who follows the religion.

In much the same way i can condemn a Christian for blowing up an abortion clinic without having to condemn every single one of them and declaring that they are about to bring down civilisation as we know it.

 

It's not about 'bringing down civilization' Cyclone. It is about the second class status of women being intrinsic to the Islamic cult, endemic in Moslem societies, and the justification within that cult of violence to enforce it: this is ,I think, what Ruby is on about. That, and the evasion of addressing that, by people who certainly should know better.

[rubydazzler 11]

It's not about 'bringing down civilization' Cyclone. It is about the second class status of women being intrinsic to the Islamic cult, endemic in Moslem societies, and the justification within that cult of violence to enforce it: this is ,I think, what Ruby is on about. That, and the evasion of addressing that, by people who certainly should know better.

 

oh, fr8neck .... thank you. At last!!! a man with the wit to understand the problem ....

 

"Deliberate evasion". Pithy, succinct and very to the point. That's exactly what I've been getting at.

[Cyclone 10]

It's not about 'bringing down civilization' Cyclone. It is about the second class status of women being intrinsic to the Islamic cult, endemic in Moslem societies, and the justification within that cult of violence to enforce it: this is ,I think, what Ruby is on about. That, and the evasion of addressing that, by people who certainly should know better.

 

so an action by a fringe extremist demonstrates the beliefs of the entire religion, whereas the abortion clinic bombing by Christians is 'excused' as being not the actions of mainstream Christians and so separated from the main group of people who follow that religion.

 

Don't get me wrong, religion is something the entire world would be better off without, maybe with the exception of Buddhism, but to pick and choose which religion to seize on and criticise like this is unbalanced. They are all deserving of criticism and all have extremist adherents who will use violence to further their cause.

[firecracker 10]

You can't but you arn't a nutter. This bloke is.

 

That's not an excuse and he will be hanged so he's going to get what he deserves.

My point was that many religions and cultures have their nutters as does Islam but you can't say all christians are mad as spoons by using the example of two and you can't say the same for all muslims using the example of their minority of head cases even if they have more at the moment.

 

Will he get hanged? Did those who carried out the Bali atrocity get hanged? Their leader got 30 months, later cut to 15 months - for 202 murders!!!! or one month for every 13 slaughtered in cold blood. We are talking here about a religion which hangs 16 year old girls for having sharp tongues, and promotes the slaughter of non-Muslims. And according to the supremacist ideology of Islam, one Muslim is worth 2 Christians, 4 Jews, and 8 polytheists (which they regard Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs etc as), and as one Muslim man is worth two women, it can be safely said that they regard one Muslim man as to be the equal of 4 Christian, 8 Jewish and 16 Hindu women. And do you know how hatred of the Westerners is promoted in the Arab, Iranian and Pakistani media. Do you know that a fat slob Egyptian pop star made a pop video glorifying the 911 atrocity and blamed Jews for it, just as they blame Jews for every terrorist atrocity carried out in the West. And at the end of the day, it is time people in Britain and throughout the Western world studied the history of Islam, its conquests, its treatment of women and non-Muslim minorities in Muslim countries, the hated poll tax that non-Muslims have to pay in many Muslim countries, the clothes they have to wear which marks them out as non-Muslims, and the hateful texts of the Koran, Sira and hadith, the principles of abrogation where a verse gets overriden by another that has been deemed 'an improvement' - and remember the verses that call for Jihad (from the Medinan era where Islam has become strong) override the so-called peaceful ones from the Meccan era where Islam was weak, and the word 'peace' means something different to a Muslim than what it does for a non-Muslim, because whilst peace means no war to a non-Muslim, peace to a Muslim refers to a world conquered by Islam, where no other religion exists. And did you know that non-Muslim minorities in Muslim countries aren't even allowed to ride a horse (they can only ride a donkey)? And rape victims in Muslim countries have to produce four male witnesses to escape punishment for being the victim. And this could have been the way of life in Britain, France, Spain etc but for a few things: Charles Martel's victories at Tours and Poitiers in 732, the Reconquista in Spain (722 - 1492), the victories of Graf von Salm and Jan Sobieski at the Siege and Battles of Vienna (1529 and 1683). And these things DO rankle in the minds of Muslims, and one tenet of Islam is that "Once a land is gained, it is forever Muslim, and if it is lost it should be returned to dar al Islam - the House of Islam". This is the reason why the Arabs want Israel destroying - because it is former Muslim land (and was obviously Jewish before then) - and if Israel falls - look for them demanding the return of al-Andalus (their name for Spain - not Andalusia), and all former Ottoman lands - Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria, Romania, Armenia etc.

[rubydazzler 11]

so an action by a fringe extremist demonstrates the beliefs of the entire religion, whereas the abortion clinic bombing by Christians is 'excused' as being not the actions of mainstream Christians and so separated from the main group of people who follow that religion.

 

Don't get me wrong, religion is something the entire world would be better off without, maybe with the exception of Buddhism, but to pick and choose which religion to seize on and criticise like this is unbalanced. They are all deserving of criticism and all have extremist adherents who will use violence to further their cause.

 

Who said that anyway? You introduced that particular red herring into the debate.

 

I agree that we would be better off without religion at all. But if we have to have it, the fundamentalist, all abrahamic religions would be better if all the references vis-a-vis men and women were removed. I still don't think you're following my argument though which fr8neck has managed to grasp easily enough. If you could just keep in mind that she was murdered purely because she was a woman, dressed 'wrong' and trying to achieve rights for women in her country and that in certain areas here in UK, men are trying to introduce these archaic laws ... and answer on that basis. As I said previously, it's always a preponderance of male discourse trying to cover up and otherwise excuse this type of injustice.

[fr8neck 10]

so an action by a fringe extremist demonstrates the beliefs of the entire religion, whereas the abortion clinic bombing by Christians is 'excused' as being not the actions of mainstream Christians and so separated from the main group of people who follow that religion.

 

Don't get me wrong, religion is something the entire world would be better off without, maybe with the exception of Buddhism, but to pick and choose which religion to seize on and criticise like this is unbalanced. They are all deserving of criticism and all have extremist adherents who will use violence to further their cause.

 

 

It would be nice if the second class status of women in Moslem society was the sole preserve of 'fringe extremists'. However, that is not the case: it is persistent and endemic, it is the norm.

 

Violence to justify it's enforcement is indulged by both civil and religious authorities.

 

As pointed out above: trying to evade facing this by introducing 'red herrings' regarding nutcasery within Christian cults, or, for that matter, those of Eskimos or Pygmies, does you no credit at all.

[firecracker 10]

The man who committed this crime did it because he was committed to killing all sinful women. He said if he was released he would kill some more. He had already been questioned in relation to the killings of 4 prostitutes. He saw the involvement in politics of this woman as sinful.

 

He has more in common with Peter Sutcliff than with anyone else, to be honest his religion has nothing to do with it, he is a psycho.

 

Hiis religion has EVERYTHING to do with it. Like Bin Laden, Zawahiri, the Taliban etc, he is the most pious of Muslims. Islam is misogynistic amongst all its other crimes against human decency. The Taliban used to kill women for showing 10 centimetres of bare flesh in Taliban Afghanistan. This is all part and parcel of the Muslim belief that women are inferior, and this reveals what they think of women who rise in status. Back in the 1990/91 Gulf War, Saudi officials were flabbergasted to see men in the US Armed Forces take orders from a woman.

[upinwath 10]

Will he get hanged? Did those who carried out the Bali atrocity get hanged? Their leader got 30 months, later cut to 15 months - for 202 murders!!!! or one month for every 13 slaughtered in cold blood.

 

are your facts in order?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article1081598.ece

 

BRITISH-educated bombmaker believed to have masterminded both Bali bombings blew himself up yesterday when an anti-terrorist unit surrounded his hideout in Indonesia.

Azahari bin Husin, a former student of Reading University known as the “Demolition Man”, was cornered with some of his followers in Batu on East Java. The gang threw grenades and shot at police before two explosions tore the roof off the building, killing all those inside. Azahari had boasted that he always wore a suicide vest, as he was determined never to be captured.

 

Or was it another leader and another bali ?

 

Suicide is a mortal sin in Islam so to true muslims this guy is having his toes roasted as we type.

[firecracker 10]

are your facts in order?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article1081598.ece

 

 

 

Or was it another leader and another bali ?

 

Suicide is a mortal sin in Islam so to true muslims this guy is having his toes roasted as we type.

 

Now have a good read of this article. The religion of peace indeed:

 

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=26769