Jump to content RIP Sheffield Admin Mort


I don't normally get a kick from the suffering of other human beings...

Recommended Posts

Perhaps it would be an idea if he stopped doing those very things himself.

 

 

 

Off topic personal sniping anyone? See purdyamos for details............

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Surely, another aspect of retribution, officially or unofficially dished out, is the effect it has on others.

 

To put it simply, if someone is contemplating mugging an old lady or beating someone up for the fun of it ..etc......they might very well be deterred by the thought that they would get a harsh official punishment and possibly an even harder unofficial one.

 

If people think that official punishments are far too weak or even non-existent, the more likely they are to take matters into their own hands.

 

What the Hand-Wringers won't seem to accept [ despite the evidence ] is that if there is no harsh retribution, one way or another, a certain percentage of people will step in and become bullies and violent criminals. This is what some people have been trying to point out for the last 30 or 40 years.

 

Again:--If official violence breeds violence, why were people in the U.K. less violent in the '50's and '60's ?

Do you think the Sheffield Gangs [to give one example] would have disbanded after a few kind words and an appeal to their better nature ?

Why is it that the vast majority of men who go through the violence of war, simply want to lead peaceful lives afterwards ?

 

In all these cases, violence, or the witnessing of it, seems to have cured the taste for it.I'm afraid the Hand-Wringers are probably living in a world dreamed up by some Californian socioligist in the 1960's. Thus, the real world of the U.K. in 2007, continues its descent into yobbishness and violence of all descriptions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why not seperate the elements of the tale and look at those: if this pair had slipped on a greb and fallen down the prison stairs to cause their injuries would anyone be bothered?

 

I would guess not.

 

What the tale shows is that the prisoners in the place are in a position to get together in a gang and assault other inmates. This won't just be 'gang-rapists' though, will it? So if you are sent there for, say, 3 months for drunk and dissorderly conduct, you will be at the mercy of prison gangs.

To protect yourself you will need to join one, and the nature of things is that they will expect you to prove yourself by some form of criminal action: against other inmates and the representatives of 'authority'- the screws.

 

For myself, when I came out, I'd not think much of the society that had put me in this position.

 

I would be beholden to the other gang members for my survival and wellbeing: not the wider society.

 

I would be more practised in criminality then when I went in.

 

The above is something more than conjecture I think: it is the prevailing norm in most US jails; almost all jails in Central and South America; South Africa: ....most of the world in fact.

 

All these places have sky high rates of violent recidivism.

 

Why do people suppose that a prison gang has any particular sense of 'justice' in the normal fashion. What they are engaged in is a self-exculpatory mind trick: "This person is 'worse' than me, if I beat them up it means that I am 'good'!"

Apart from this form of psychological reward, most prison violence is aimed at competitive advantage over other gangs (We're the best gang!! And I'm a member!!), extracting 'respect' from the screws, and material benefit.

 

If people want to see violent retribution then they should engage themselves in the political process that determines the penalties meted out: to ensure that they are structured and aimed at the 'appropriate' targets.

Settling for a situation where you can be fed tales of arbitrary violence occasionally landing on someone who 'deserves it', and being satisfied with that, seems ridiculous to me.

(As does wanting to kill burglars etc one minute; and then send them christmas cards the next- just cos they've got in a gang and beaten someone up.)

 

In short: where the circumstances exist that this can occur, the prison is badly run and will tend to kick people back out worse than when they went in.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Settling for a situation where you can be fed tales of arbitrary violence occasionally landing on someone who 'deserves it', and being satisfied with that, seems ridiculous to me.

 

Hear hear. I wondered if anyone was actually going to say something sensible in this thread.

 

As usual the hang 'em and flog 'em brigade completely miss the point. If we are to rely on prison inmates to dispense justice, how the hell are we supposed to know that justice is being dispensed where it is needed. The six men who took it upon themselves to sort out these "evil rapists" weren't doing it out of a sense of community values - they probably just don't like Pakistanis.

 

Who will inflict a similar punishemnt on these six, or does Chaveau think they've all been banged up for not handing their knitting homework in on time?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A civilised society dispenses justice by depriving criminals of their liberty. If we applaud violence within our prisons, even (as in this case) an Australian prison, we are not dispensing justice, but simply condoning thuggary.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think what probably triggered this attack was that one of the two men (and I use that term loosely) had just had his sentence reduced by about half.

Personally I hope they both die in a lot of pain.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
A civilised society dispenses justice by depriving criminals of their liberty.

 

Says who?

 

What is this assertion based on?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Says who?

 

What is this assertion based on?

 

Simple really, because we live by the law. We do not live by some extra-judicial system of sanctioned thuggary.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Personally I think the justice system is too easy on offenders such as these, and I understand why people can be frustrated by this. How any sensible person can condone mob violence as an alternative to ordered justice is beond me. If you allow a self apointed gang of thugs to dispense their own brand of justice, sooner or later they will come for you!

Here's an example of mob justice:

 

A few years ago in Newport a vigalante group formed to 'sort out' a local paedophile, fueled by the 'News of the World's name and shame campaign.

(With them so far? Good.)

 

They turned up at his home but he wasn't there so they smashed a few windows and did some chanting...then they got bored....

So they went round to see some people who they thought might me paedophiles (any elderly male living alone more or less) and they broke some more windows, and some neighbours windows, and did some more chanting.

 

To finish the evening in style they attacked the home of a femaile paediatrician, smashing windows and daubing slogans on the walls. The woman managed to flee the house unhurt, but couldn't return until police could track down the morons responsible and explain the mistake (oh how they laughed)....

 

Still feel happy to associate your self with mob justice? If so your as daft as they are.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/child/story/0,7369,361031,00.html

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

well im sure the two who got a beating wanted mercy ,& didn,t get it just like their victims wanted mercy & didn,t get it ,funny how life works

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Simple really, because we live by the law. We do not live by some extra-judicial system of sanctioned thuggary.

 

You have avoided my question: addressing your response to the section I excised.

 

Specifically: who says deprivation of liberty for an entirely arbitrary period of time is the, or indeed any, measure of civilisation?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Would all those who have so stoutly approved of violence being dished out in prison also care to comment on how grand it was that convicted thief and first time offender Zahid Mubarek was beaten to death with a table leg at Feltham in March 2000?

 

Would they likewise care to explain (cloudybay?) how they see this fitting into their view of 'social justice'? Would the vengeance seekers care to explain to me how fair and proper it is that a young lad of 19 in prison for the first time should be beaten into a coma and then die and whether they feel this this reflects well on their sense of moral values - the one that says 'violence is alright - as long as it happens to people we don't like'?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.