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I don't normally get a kick from the suffering of other human beings...

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... but when the justice system lets the victims down then as far as im concerned they deserve all they get.

It didn't let them down, they were in prison.

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Never mind cliche, LordC, it's a valid and serious question; violence is cyclical by nature - call it a cliche if you will, but it does't detract from the truth that violence begets violence.

If you believe that treating violent people to liberal measures of violence is a recipe for diminishing the amount of violence within society, then I'd have serious concern about your intellect.

 

Well, all I can say is that the Halibut school of criminology has a lot to answer for. The assumption that if we treat criminals nicely in prison they will come out as model citizens seems to be belied by the facts, in particular by the high rate of recidivism among violent criminals, and also by the record levels of violent crime in our society. Your bold assertion that 'violence begets violence' is a 'truth' is also highly questionable. A more likely 'truth' in my view is that many violent people, like the gang rapists who are the subject of this thread, are cowards and bullies who are quite happy to inflict pain and suffering on others because they think they can get away with it (and who would think twice before acting if facing the certainty of severe punishment).

 

By the way, I didn't say that I would favour the reintroduction of violent (corporal) punishment into our penal system. However, gang rapists who are on the receiving end of violence from other prisoners (a case of the biter bit in these cases) will get no sympathy from me.

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People talk about, ' The moral high ground ' and how we lose it if we treat criminals who are violent or sexually violent or, indeed, kill people, with some kind of ' extra-curricular ' justice----or, to put it more bluntly, if people take the law into their own hands.

 

If violent criminals recognised any sort of ' moral high ground ', this may be all well and good. However there are many indications that thugs and dead-heads look upon civilised retribution as a joke or, at best, a weakness. This is why various people feel obliged to dish out their own justice.

 

Does judicial violence breed violence ? Absolutely not, in my opinion. If that were so, why is it that adults in the '50's, 60's and '70's in the U.K.were not all going round chinning each other or fighting ; because the fact is that almost every one of them had been in schools where corporal punishment was the order of the day, where police officers were not averse to dishing out a bit of 'corporal' and where parents were more inclined to use corporal punishment.Strangely enough, the general population mid- 20th. century were nowhere near as violent as today's !! Surprise , surprise !

 

The only time that Sheffield has been considered more violent than other provincial cities in the U.K was in the 1920's, when the Sheffield gangs, more or less, ruled the streets. The way they were tamed was by the police frightening the gangs into submission. Sheffield has inherited that situation by still being one of the safest big cities in the U.K.

 

Thugs and the Lumpenproletariat, unfortunately, only seem to understand one language--------judicial retribution which is more remorseless and stronger than themselves. Until the Bleeding Hearts learn this, if they ever can, we will continue to have widespread bullying in our schools and violence on the streets.

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"If we practice an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, soon the whole world will be blind and toothless" Mahatma Gandhi

 

I fail to see what allowing the world to degenerate into mindless violence can achieve for society.

 

I feel for the victims of the rapists, I really do, but state sanctioned violence is still wrong.

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And how do we ever break the cycle of violence if we allow vengeance to be a response to crime?
I think, as far as an offender is concerned, that the cycle of violence comes to a rather definite end if we hang him from a gibbet.

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And how do we ever break the cycle of violence if we allow vengeance to be a response to crime?

 

Cycle? Are you saying that beating these prisoners up is likely to make them violent? Really? And they were such nice boys before. :rolleyes:

 

If those convicted of such crimes spent the rest of their natural life in prison (as they should) then the cycle has been broken.

 

And as for your comment that the attackers are as bad as the *victims* - did the two men get raped? I missed that particular detail in the report.

 

That the other prisoners despised what the two men did is morally rather heartwarming. If the two men had been back in their native Pakistan, not only would they probably not have been beaten up, they'd likely not be in prison in the first place. Their victims, however, would be punished and ostracised, social pariahs forever.

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Cycle? Are you saying that beating these prisoners up is likely to make them violent? Really? And they were such nice boys before. :rolleyes:

 

If those convicted of such crimes spent the rest of their natural life in prison (as they should) then the cycle has been broken.

 

And as for your comment that the attackers are as bad as the *victims* - did the two men get raped? I missed that particular detail in the report.

 

That the other prisoners despised what the two men did is morally rather heartwarming. If the two men had been back in their native Pakistan, not only would they probably not have been beaten up, they'd likely not be in prison in the first place. Their victims, however, would be punished and ostracised, social pariahs forever.

Simply sums up how i feel.:thumbsup:

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Cycle? Are you saying that beating these prisoners up is likely to make them violent? Really? And they were such nice boys before. :rolleyes:

 

If those convicted of such crimes spent the rest of their natural life in prison (as they should) then the cycle has been broken.

 

And as for your comment that the attackers are as bad as the *victims* - did the two men get raped? I missed that particular detail in the report.

 

That the other prisoners despised what the two men did is morally rather heartwarming. If the two men had been back in their native Pakistan, not only would they probably not have been beaten up, they'd likely not be in prison in the first place. Their victims, however, would be punished and ostracised, social pariahs forever.

 

Are you really saying you don't believe that violence breeds violence or am I misunderstanding you? Does the fact that these prisoners were 'such nice boys before' mean that it's ok that they were severely beaten?

It goes much further than whether these two prisoners are beaten though. Encouraging and condoning the violent assault of prisoners - regardless of their crime is not the kind of thing I like to see.

Whether raped or not, these men were subject to a huge degree of very damaging violence - and yes, I believe that's just as wrong as the violence inflicted on the prisoners victims.

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Does judicial violence breed violence ? Absolutely not, in my opinion. If that were so, why is it that adults in the '50's, 60's and '70's in the U.K.were not all going round chinning each other or fighting ; because the fact is that almost every one of them had been in schools where corporal punishment was the order of the day, where police officers were not averse to dishing out a bit of 'corporal' and where parents were more inclined to use corporal punishment.Strangely enough, the general population mid- 20th. century were nowhere near as violent as today's !! Surprise , surprise !

 

 

Until the Bleeding Hearts learn this, if they ever can, we will continue to have widespread bullying in our schools and violence on the streets.

 

What Fareast just said.:thumbsup:

 

Would be nice to know how many of the present prison population doing time for crimes involving violence were smacked as kids at school and by their parents, and compare this with those inside for the same crimes who were not subjected to corporal discipline.

 

And by corporal discipline I do not mean 'beaten up by drunken abusive fathers'.

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As it says in the bible and eye for n eye,as to halibut well you didnt expect anything else did you?

He is an apologist for the low lifes in this world, no wonder the country is going down the pan when people of his ilk are about.

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As it says in the bible and eye for n eye,as to halibut well you didnt expect anything else did you?

He is an apologist for the low lifes in this world, no wonder the country is going down the pan when people of his ilk are about.

 

You really haven't a clue about life have you royjames?

p.s. The country isn't going down the pan, it's doing Ok.

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You really haven't a clue about life have you royjames? p.s. The country isn't going down the pan, it's doing Ok.

 

Halibut, Halibut ... give it up, fgs. Change the record. You're undoubtedly a sensitive person, a bleeding heart as they say. I can't understand how you can so often appear to be on the side of wrong whilst trying so determinedly to be a good person and on the side of right.

 

I think we do have to blame people of your ilk for the situation we find ourselves in. There is a quote from 'Timon of Athens' which goes something like this "Nothing emboldens Sin so much as the presence of Mercy" ... go and sit on the stairs for a while and consider this.

 

Give a thought to the victims and stop trying to be a saint.

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