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This is a bit rich coming from you halibut. I am scratching my head to remember any post of yours in which you have sought to find any common ground at all with those who disagree with the pc conventional wisdoms you espouse on this forum.

 

Capital H for Halibut if you please, LordC. Ta.

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This is about the most succinct example of appeasement that I have yet come across. Should we have sought to put ourselves in Hitler's or Lenin's shoes? Unfortunately, too many people did at the time, and we all know the results. For example, a quite common view in the 1930s was that, although Hitler was perhaps too extreme, he nevertheless had legitimate grievances which would be dealt with in a rational way.

LordC, what I am suggesting is far from appeasment!

 

I'm not arguing that we should tollorate, or even negotiate with, people who harbour extreme Islamic views or do deals with those that threaten us. All I've said is we should be big enough to admit it when we have done something wrong and try and put it right... especially when doing so will prevent division within our society and stop people from going down the extremist path.

 

By accepting the 'grievances' of muslims about UK foreign policy at their face value, rather than pointing out the weakness of the case upon which these supposed grievances are based, you are legitimising and validating them. In so doing, you are not doing the muslim community any favours, any more than Chamberlain did the German population any favours in the 1930s.

 

The war in Iraq is illegal and morally wrong - a point that should be accepted at face value. The complaint is valid and the complaint is not only being made by Muslims.

 

You are arguing that we cannot accept having done something wrong because, even though we did, to do so would be surrendering to people who threaten us because of that wrong doing! I'm sorry but you cannot refuse to acknowledge a legitimate complaint simply because 0.001% of the people making the complaint have made a threat.

 

Your "no surrender" argument reminds me of an incident with my kids the other day. I went to investigate a disagreement between my little girl and her younger brother and it transpired that she had taken a toy off him whilst he was playing with it. She was refusing to give it back because he had threatened to hit her if she didn't. She argued it was wrong for him to threaten her and she wouldn't give in to his bullying. Apparently, he needed to be nice to her for a while and she would then consider returning the toy. I took a leaf out of the rugby rule book and decided to go back and punish the first offence. He got his toy back and she got 10 minutes sitting on the stairs to think about it.

 

LordC, go do 10 minutes on the stairs and think about it! ;)

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Would putting myself in the shoes of a God fearing person living further in the past than Marty McFly actually solve anything? The quid pro quo might make him more enlightened, but I fear it would do bugger all for me.

 

LOL. Yes, but we're talking about "wearing the other mans shoes" to try and resolve grievances, not find devine enlightenment!

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Capital H for Halibut if you please, LordC. Ta.

 

 

Try answering his points halibut.:thumbsup:

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LordC, what I am suggesting is far from appeasment!

 

I'm not arguing that we should tollorate, or even negotiate with, people who harbour extreme Islamic views or do deals with those that threaten us. All I've said is we should be big enough to admit it when we have done something wrong and try and put it right... especially when doing so will prevent division within our society and stop people from going down the extremist path.

 

 

 

The war in Iraq is illegal and morally wrong - a point that should be accepted at face value. The complaint is valid and the complaint is not only being made by Muslims.

 

You are arguing that we cannot accept having done something wrong because, even though we did, to do so would be surrendering to people who threaten us because of that wrong doing! I'm sorry but you cannot refuse to acknowledge a legitimate complaint simply because 0.001% of the people making the complaint have made a threat.

 

Your "no surrender" argument reminds me of an incident with my kids the other day. I went to investigate a disagreement between my little girl and her younger brother and it transpired that she had taken a toy off him whilst he was playing with it. She was refusing to give it back because he had threatened to hit her if she didn't. She argued it was wrong for him to threaten her and she wouldn't give in to his bullying. Apparently, he needed to be nice to her for a while and she would then consider returning the toy. I took a leaf out of the rugby rule book and decided to go back and punish the first offence. He got his toy back and she got 10 minutes sitting on the stairs to think about it.

 

LordC, go do 10 minutes on the stairs and think about it! ;)

 

Well Zamo, I have done my 10 minutes on the stairs. I agree I can be a naughty boy at times and deserve, indeed sometimes ask for, a smacked bottom (but that’s another story).

 

With regard to the war in Iraq, I have no problem at all with muslims or anyone else criticizing the invasion and occupation. Indeed, I have done so myself on this forum and elsewhere many times. What I do have a problem with is the conflation of this criticism to embrace a specifically muslim sense of grievance or persecution and the uses to which these feelings are being put in mosques up and down the country. We should be outraged at the deaths caused by the invasion because the casualties are human beings, not because they are muslims. The fact that there appears to be so little outrage by muslims at the deaths in Darfur speaks volumes for the duplicity and hypocrisy surrounding this culture of muslim victimization. Instead of pandering to it, or legitimizing it by default (i.e. by remaining silent as the radical clerics rant and rave – in the hope that they will go away), we should be vigorously challenging it at every opportunity.

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Go for it, All i have to say is ill be voteing BNP this time. The sooner these muslims are out of our country the better. Nowt but bloody trouble.

 

Akita- you sound nothing more than a BIGOT so your only hope is to poison people with your views- majority of muslims are peace abiding (as no doubt you have heard many times) and perhaps only 2% of the 'muslims' can be counted like the lads from Birmingham etc.

Lets remember that the Christian Crusaders were considered as the most vicious and nasty when compared to the muslims in 12th century and when they first conquered jerusalem they slaughtered innocent women and children, raped etc. When the muslims re-captured the Holy city, they freed the captives and even helped some to pay the ransom to be freed- none were 'coldly butchered' and if you wish to compare more then look at Blair and Bush- the biggest war criminals in the world- the have destroyed Iraq and created civil war, bombed Afganistan when they had no reason to but got all 'worked up' over 9/11- why did they not bomb Saudia Arabia? If the so called terrorists of 9/11 were arab- they shoud have gone there- maybe the £1billion+ saudi money being pumped into the US had something to do with it??!!

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Eat my shorts.

 

This is obviously one of your more intellectually accomplished days, is it, Halibut? :P

 

StarSparkle

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Akita- you sound nothing more than a BIGOT so your only hope is to poison people with your views- majority of muslims are peace abiding (as no doubt you have heard many times) and perhaps only 2% of the 'muslims' can be counted like the lads from Birmingham etc.

Lets remember that the Christian Crusaders were considered as the most vicious and nasty when compared to the muslims in 12th century and when they first conquered jerusalem they slaughtered innocent women and children, raped etc. When the muslims re-captured the Holy city, they freed the captives and even helped some to pay the ransom to be freed- none were 'coldly butchered' and if you wish to compare more then look at Blair and Bush- the biggest war criminals in the world- the have destroyed Iraq and created civil war, bombed Afganistan when they had no reason to but got all 'worked up' over 9/11- why did they not bomb Saudia Arabia? If the so called terrorists of 9/11 were arab- they shoud have gone there- maybe the £1billion+ saudi money being pumped into the US had something to do with it??!!

Only 2%, Thank god for that was starting toworry.So called terrorists 9/11,HMM.Did you know that Bernard Cribbins is being connected to the Attack.

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LordChaverly 'This is about the most succinct example of appeasement that I have yet come across. Should we have sought to put ourselves in Hitler's or Lenin's shoes?'

 

I think there are a few posters who have stolen some dead mens shoes

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LordChaverly 'This is about the most succinct example of appeasement that I have yet come across. Should we have sought to put ourselves in Hitler's or Lenin's shoes?'

 

I think there are a few posters who have stolen some dead mens shoes

 

But do they fit?

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Firstly Joe i do apologise for actually saying something that is on topic, something that hasnt been done on this thread a lot but...

 

Although 2 of the people arrested have been freed without charge which is right and proper

 

A number of these people have been charged with offences under the anti terrorism act if they are found guilty of plotting to behead a muslim soldier or anyone for that matter will our resident islamaphiles condemn them or make excuses for them

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