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...and still no sign of any charges for the others...:suspect:

 

Charges have now been brought... bbc.

 

Whilst I share some of the worries about the police and intellegence services having perhaps too much power under the new anti-terrorism laws, that does not detract away from the fact that there is still a real problem with young Muslims in this country becoming radicalised.

 

I think the difficulty for the police and intellegence services is differentiating between real plotters and those that are all mouth and no trousers. They are in a bit of a no win situation because if they make the judgement call that the suspects are all mouth, but they then go on to commit an attrocity like the 7/7 lot, then they are slatted. If they decide to pick up, question and (in some cases) prosecute "wannabies", then there are accusations about a "police state for Muslims".

 

Personally, I am slowly moving towards the view that the police are acting responsibly. I don't think they have a choice. If innocent people within the Muslim community are getting caught up then that is unfortunate but not a reason for stopping what they are doing. Instead of moaning about a "police state for Muslims", perhaps Muslim communities should be looking to deal with the problem within so police have no cause to be spying on and arresting their youth?

 

Don't get me wrong, I am not without some sympathy for how young Muslims are feeling. I think it is outragous that the US and UK invaded Iraq. I'm angry about it and I'm sure that if I were a Muslim then I'd be a lot angrier still. However, they should seek address through protest, debate and argument. Radical Islam is not the solution and, regardless of the hypocracy of us invading Iraq to impose our "foreign ways", it will not be tollorated in this country.

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Don't get me wrong, I am not without some sympathy for how young Muslims are feeling. I think it is outragous that the US and UK invaded Iraq. I'm angry about it and I'm sure that if I were a Muslim then I'd be a lot angrier still. However, they should seek address through protest, debate and argument. Radical Islam is not the solution and, regardless of the hypocracy of us invading Iraq to impose our "foreign ways", it will not be tollorated in this country.

 

But why should you be angrier still, if you were a muslim?

 

The US and the UK did not invade Iraq because it was muslim state (in fact Saddam's Iraq was probably the most secular state in the muslim world). The same applies to muslim 'grievances' over Chechnya, Bosnia and Kosovo. In all three cases, these were largely ethnic conflicts in which religion was a marginal rather than a central issue.

 

The real problem is with the Manichean world view of extremist muslims, which automatically divides people into two basic categories, muslim and non-muslim and which requires muslims to support their 'brothers' in world conflicts, regardless of the real issues at stake. In short, these are utterly bogus and manufactured grievances, however strongly felt.

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But why should you be angrier still, if you were a muslim?

 

The US and the UK did not invade Iraq because it was muslim state (in fact Saddam's Iraq was probably the most secular state in the muslim world).

 

No, but it is mostly Muslims being killed.

 

The same applies to muslim 'grievances' over Chechnya, Bosnia and Kosovo. In all three cases, these were largely ethnic conflicts in which religion was a marginal rather than a central issue.

I don't think the likes of Kosovo or Bosnia come close to the impact that Iraq has had towards drving yound Muslims (in this country anyway) towards more radical thinking.

 

The real problem is with the Manichean world view of extremist muslims, which automatically divides people into two basic categories, muslim and non-muslim and which requires muslims to support their 'brothers' in world conflicts, regardless of the real issues at stake. In short, these are utterly bogus and manufactured grievances, however strongly felt.

 

You said it yourself - Muslims are brought up to feel an affinity towards their fellow Muslim. Whether or not you (or I) agree or understand that, makes no odds. It doesn't make what they feel/believe any less real. As such, I appreciate that Muslims have more to be angry about regarding the invasion of Iraq, and subsequent slaughter of countless Muslims, than non Muslims like myself.

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No, but it is mostly Muslims being killed.

 

 

I don't think the likes of Kosovo or Bosnia come close to the impact that Iraq has had towards drving yound Muslims (in this country anyway) towards more radical thinking.

 

 

 

You said it yourself - Muslims are brought up to feel an affinity towards their fellow Muslim. Whether or not you (or I) agree or understand that, makes no odds. It doesn't make what they feel/believe any less real. As such, I appreciate that Muslims have more to be angry about regarding the invasion of Iraq, and subsequent slaughter of countless Muslims, than non Muslims like myself.

 

But they are not being killed because they are muslims (except if they are 'the wrong kind of muslim', by other muslims in Iraq).

 

As for Bosnia and Kosovo, the 'West' strongly supported the 'muslim' side in these conflicts, so there was no reason for muslims in this country to feel so aggrieved. However, in spite of Western support in these conflicts, muslim zealots such as Moazzem Begg and many others were already very active in seeking to turn these conflicts into 'religious wars' in the minds of other muslims.

 

I agree that deluded perceptions can cause just as strong emotions as any other kind. But there is no reason why we should take these delusions (for example that the 'West' has launched a 'crusade' against muslims and that muslims are being 'persecuted' at home and abroad) at their face value and not point out how absurd they are.

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As for Bosnia and Kosovo, the 'West' strongly supported the 'muslim' side in these conflicts, so there was no reason for muslims in this country to feel so aggrieved.

 

I might be wrong, but I expect that a fair few Serbians still see Kosovo in the same way as many Muslims see Israel/Palestine, i.e. as an ancestral heartland occupied by culturally alien foreigners whose occupation is supported by the "international community". True, Kosovo has been "occupied" for about 10 times as long as Israel/Palestine, but I don't suppose that many of those Muslims would argue that the latter occupation would be legitimated if only it could be prolonged for a few hundred years.

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6344967.stm

 

How can they say we are a police state where muslims are concerned.

 

If anyone was plotting this kind of vile thing, they would be arrested also.

 

Surely they must realise that their silly ideas will never come to fruition.

Did these people honestly believe that murder and torture would cause English people to run away crying.

 

The rest of the Muslim community should be out today thanking every copper they see.

If these maniacs had suceeded in their aims, the Muslim community would have been finished in the UK.

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If these maniacs had suceeded in their aims

 

shurely shome mishtake?

 

...alleged aims...?

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I agree that deluded perceptions can cause just as strong emotions as any other kind. But there is no reason why we should take these delusions (for example that the 'West' has launched a 'crusade' against muslims and that muslims are being 'persecuted' at home and abroad) at their face value and not point out how absurd they are.

 

Pointing our how absurd you find someone elses position doesn't help to resolve a difference. You need to put yourself in the other mans shoes and find common ground.

 

I believe that people in thr UK following a foreign religion and culture should be mindful and respectful of where they live. They need to either embrace our culture or at least find a way to practice what they believe without imposing on, or trying to change, our way of life. I certainly don't expect them to plot against the society they live in or resort to terror tactics to voice protest. Having said all that, there is a certain amount of hypocracy in telling Muslims here to "When in Rome..." whilst we have our troops in a Muslim country, using bombs and bullets to impose the will of a Western Administration!

 

Our foreign policy is alienating British Muslims and steering many towards more radical forms of Islam because they do take it personally. You can try and argue that there is no justification for this but what's the point? It doesn't make the invasion any more right does it? Let's stick to arguing against the excuses that have no legitimacy and not those that do.

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Pointing our how absurd you find someone elses position doesn't help to resolve a difference. You need to put yourself in the other mans shoes and find common ground.

 

I believe that people in thr UK following a foreign religion and culture should be mindful and respectful of where they live. They need to either embrace our culture or at least find a way to practice what they believe without imposing on, or trying to change, our way of life. I certainly don't expect them to plot against the society they live in or resort to terror tactics to voice protest. Having said all that, there is a certain amount of hypocracy in telling Muslims here to "When in Rome..." whilst we have our troops in a Muslim country, using bombs and bullets to impose the will of a Western Administration!

 

Our foreign policy is alienating British Muslims and steering many towards more radical forms of Islam because they do take it personally. You can try and argue that there is no justification for this but what's the point? It doesn't make the invasion any more right does it? Let's stick to arguing against the excuses that have no legitimacy and not those that do.

 

Zamo, that's about the most balanced, sensible and reasonable post I've seen on the forum in a long time and covers a great deal of what I believe. Particularly like your first paragraph -

 

''Pointing our how absurd you find someone elses position doesn't help to resolve a difference. You need to put yourself in the other mans shoes and find common ground.''

 

Very wise words.

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Pointing our how absurd you find someone elses position doesn't help to resolve a difference. You need to put yourself in the other mans shoes and find common ground.

 

 

This is about the most succinct example of appeasement that I have yet come across. Should we have sought to put ourselves in Hitler's or Lenin's shoes? Unfortunately, too many people did at the time, and we all know the results. For example, a quite common view in the 1930s was that, although Hitler was perhaps too extreme, he nevertheless had legitimate grievances which would be dealt with in a rational way.

 

By accepting the 'grievances' of muslims about UK foreign policy at their face value, rather than pointing out the weakness of the case upon which these supposed grievances are based, you are legitimising and validating them. In so doing, you are not doing the muslim community any favours, any more than Chamberlain did the German population any favours in the 1930s.

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You need to put yourself in the other mans shoes and find common ground.''[/b]

 

Very wise words.

 

This is a bit rich coming from you halibut. I am scratching my head to remember any post of yours in which you have sought to find any common ground at all with those who disagree with the pc conventional wisdoms you espouse on this forum.

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Zamo, that's about the most balanced, sensible and reasonable post I've seen on the forum in a long time and covers a great deal of what I believe. Particularly like your first paragraph -

 

''Pointing our how absurd you find someone elses position doesn't help to resolve a difference. You need to put yourself in the other mans shoes and find common ground.''

 

Very wise words.

 

Would putting myself in the shoes of a God fearing person living further in the past than Marty McFly actually solve anything? The quid pro quo might make him more enlightened, but I fear it would do bugger all for me.

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