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Karma - What ye sow, so shall ye reap


Karma - universal truth or wishful thinking?  

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  1. 1. Karma - universal truth or wishful thinking?

    • Universal Truth
      2
    • Wishful Thinking
      6
    • Neither
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Mentioned by Moonmaiden in another thread...

Originally posted by "Moon Maiden"

 

Witchever (intended) particular belief system you adhere to, including none at all, 'do as you would be done by' is not so much a rule as a fact.

 

It's not universal by any means, but if you spend your life slinging misery and unhappiness around, it will tend to reflect back on you.

 

Just another ultimate truth.

 

I believed Bouncer was specifically reffering to certain rules held by that religion.

If you wish to discuss the ins and out's of the other I will wholeheartedly do so, as I really don't agree with what you have just said there, but this isn't the thread to go on.

 

Moon Maiden

 

My take, is that the reason lots of belief systems tend to espouse the law of Karma is not that it is a desirable thing, but that it is a fact of life.

 

It's not universal by any means, but speaking generally an individual who tends to spread misery, pain and sadness instead of happiness, pleasure and joy will end up attracting more negative reponses than positive ones.

 

To me this seems blindingly obvious.

 

That this ['do unto others as you would have them do unto you'] has (according to Moon Maiden) caused a schism within the pagan theosphere, strikes me as bizarre, since it's not a question of belief so much as a fact of human behaviour.

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Well lets look at it this way shall we???

 

A good god fearing family (or atheist), always does their best and what is good and right, are thrown torment after torment. Cancer, burglary, death, misery.

 

??? How is that returning what you give out???

 

Also I am not saying that this law of karma or universal retribution is causing problems in the pagan community, though it may be said it is associated. The wiccan law of "if it harm none do what thou wilt" is the one that is causing problems, but in general the Law of three fold return and this are linked.

 

The law of a Wiccan must be that they may use magick as long as it harm no-one. This is impossible as you are always going to end up causing some difficulties for someone, somewhere along the line. Also what one personal deems to be a 'good' act another would see it as an 'bad' act.

 

Most areas of paganism seek a balance as there is in nature. Some argue that these terms are put their as a guideline for people to use their common sense, other will argue that they are to be followed to the letter.

 

Personally I have never seen a doormat get any further out of their own doorway.

 

Moon Maiden

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Originally posted by "Moon Maiden"

 

 

A good god fearing family (or atheist), always does their best and what is good and right, are thrown torment after torment. Cancer, burglary, death, misery.

I was under the impression that an atheist was an individual who doesn't believe in any form of god.

Agnostic being someone who believes nothing is known or can be known in the existence or nature of god (has no conclusive proof)!

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I was under the impression that an atheist was an individual who doesn't believe in any form of god.

Agnostic being someone who believes nothing is known or can be known in the existence or nature of god (has no conclusive proof)!

 

It does! But would that stop them from being 'good people'??? I guess that one is down to personal perceptions and their own beliefs.

 

Moon Maiden

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Originally posted by "Moon Maiden"

 

I was under the impression that an atheist was an individual who doesn't believe in any form of god.

Agnostic being someone who believes nothing is known or can be known in the existence or nature of god (has no conclusive proof)!

 

It does! But would that stop them from being 'good people'??? I guess that one is down to personal perceptions and their own beliefs.

 

Moon Maiden

I was just pointing it out that god fearing wouldn't make them good people, becuase they don't believe in god. Hence they don't fear god and he/she/it cannot make them reap what they sow.

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I was just pointing it out that god fearing wouldn't make them good people, becuase they don't believe in god. Hence they don't fear god and he/she/it cannot make them reap what they sow.

 

No but whether you are a believer in a particular religion or not the you cannot escape the fact that in this country the Christian teachings are there as part and parcel of society.

 

The first churches were actually built in this country way back in 47A.D (dates may be off BTW) and Britain is regarded as the mother of modern Christendom. So regardless of belief, it is a tad difficult to remove that much indoctrination in the space of a few months.

 

This country by that yard stick is simply a combination of heathen/pagan beliefs and Christian teachings.

 

We now also have a wave of Eastern teachings and this 'karma' thing. The term is banded about within pagan communities with no real regard for what it actually means in the context of it's own faith. I don't really know about an ordinary setting, but I guess it is much the same too.

 

Moon Maiden

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Originally posted by "Phanerothyme"

 

 

It's not universal by any means, but speaking generally an individual who tends to spread misery, pain and sadness instead of happiness, pleasure and joy will end up attracting more negative reponses than positive ones.

To me this seems blindingly obvious.

The thing is, society does not tolerate those that spread misery pain and sadness, and such acts are often criminal. If you continually steal, you will probably be caught and punished and this has a negative effect on your life. Criminalisation of certain negative acts are required for society to operate, and the resultant punishment is an act of society, nothing to do with "karma" IMO.

If you take the opposite side of the coin, someone continuously shares their wealth amongst those less fortunate, can that person automatically expect to experience an improved life? Not in my experience, although I suppose I could be looking at this from a "western" materialistic point of view. I'm certainly looking at it from an atheistic point of view.

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Originally posted by "chill"

 

It's not universal by any means, but speaking generally an individual who tends to spread misery, pain and sadness instead of happiness, pleasure and joy will end up attracting more negative reponses than positive ones.

To me this seems blindingly obvious.

The thing is, society does not tolerate those that spread misery pain and sadness, and such acts are often criminal. If you continually steal, you will probably be caught and punished and this has a negative effect on your life. Criminalisation of certain negative acts are required for society to operate, and the resultant punishment is an act of society, nothing to do with "karma" IMO.

If you take the opposite side of the coin, someone continuously shares their wealth amongst those less fortunate, can that person automatically expect to experience an improved life? Not in my experience, although I suppose I could be looking at this from a "western" materialistic point of view. I'm certainly looking at it from an atheistic point of view.

Very good points.

 

What I suppose I'm really chasing here is the ultimate prisoners dilemma.

explanation of prisoners dilemma,

 

What started this discussion off (this thread here) was, bizarrely, whether using magic(k) for malicious purposes as punishment for continued and unabashed antisocial behaviour was going to get you into cosmic (or other kinds) of trouble.

 

When we interact with one another, whether we are burgling someone or buying somone flowers, we are interacting with ourselves. If you're doing it to someone, there are thousands like you doing much the same thing.

 

Spookily enough, if you were to decide tomorrow for whatever reasons, to commit a random act of kindness/violence on a stranger every week then there would certainly be others who had come to the same conclusion. And the less extreme or deviant the course of action, the greater the number of others that would do much as you do.

 

So that is how karma works. What we do to one another, we actually do to ourselves; not in some metaphorical sense.

 

I know it's a kind of obvious 'truth' that could be more pithily summarised something like "you dont sh{BLEEP} in your own paddling pool".

 

Thing is, there is always someone else's paddling pool, but pretty soon, if you do that, someone is going to come along and squat in yours.

 

Sorry went a bit meta there.

Thoughts Comments Bedtime

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In Buddhist teaching, the law of karma, says only this: `for every event that occurs, there will follow another event whose existence was caused by the first, and this second event will be pleasant or unpleasant according as its cause was skillful or unskillful.' A skillful event is one that is not accompanied by craving, resistance or delusions; an unskillful event is one that is accompanied by any one of those things. (Events are not skillful in themselves, but are so called only in virtue of the mental events that occur with them.)

 

This is the eastern interpretation but the theme is repeated through most religions. Along with the law of Karma it incoporates reincarnation too.

 

Moon Maiden

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  • 2 months later...

Just to reicarnate this thread, there's a fairly good explanation of Karma on the Buddhist Information Network, if anyone is interested:

 

http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/karma.htm

 

or a slightly shorter article here:

 

http://www.buddhanet.net/fundbud9.htm

 

and rebirth/reicarnation:

 

http://www.buddhanet.net/funbud10.htm

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