I'm No Racist by- Tory MP

[LordChaverly]

Were his actual words, "I'm no racist, I've got lots of friends who are black"?

 

 

 

It's more complicated than that. Trevor Phillips is a relentless self publicist with an agenda. In the past he's made sweeping statements that contradict the available evidence. An intelligent discussion about race is not his number one priority.

 

There is a serious debate about race going on, but it's not one that can take place in the mainstream media because all the reactionary idiots (on both the left and right) jump on the bandwagon and try to force their own agenda. We know that some ethnic groups are overly represented in the prison population. Spink pointing this out doesn't add anything to debate, and the way it has been handled in the press is hardly edifying.

 

I am not a great fan of Phillips but at least he has shown a willingness to some extent to move away from the tired old mantras of the race relations lobbies and in this sense he has done a little to pave the way for an intelligent discussion of these issues. As for 'agendas', the race relations lobbies of course have these too. The debate should not be confined to them.

[James7x7]

Well lets add social status in.

 

The percentage of non-white to white prinsoners, versus the percentage of non-white to white in the population versus the percentage of non-white to white living at a lower level of social spectrum (i.e. above/around the breadline).

 

I'm sure if there was an equal number of non-whites living in leafy suburbs instead of inner city slums then the proportion of non-white to white prisoners would probably be equal to the proportion of non-white to white population.

 

While there is probably some truth in what you say, I doubt it's that simple. Social class and ethnicity interact differently for different ethnic groups. Furthermore, even if differences in offending rates were negligilbe once socio-economic status was controlled for, the problem would remain that some ethnic minorities are more likely to be given a custodial sentence if convicted.

 

As for 'agendas', the race relations lobbies of course have these too. The debate should not be confined to them.

 

I agree.

[DeanoGV]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/crime/article/0,,1696098,00.html#article_continue

 

This is just a classic you would think the Guardian had more important issue's at hand.

[upinwath]

http://www.smartjustice.org/press6race.shtml

 

The Home Office statistics released by campaign group SmartJustice show that the numbers of Black and Minority Ethnic people entering prison grew by 37 per cent while the white prison population grew by just 4 per cent between 1998 and 2002.

 

The figures can only partly be explained by a national rise in the BME population - as black British prisoners now make up 12 per cent of the prison population and only 2 per cent of the population as a whole.

 

 

So this (if a little out of date) shows that there are less ethnic minority prisoners than White UK citizens but a greater proportion of ethnic minority prisoners than the general population of each group.

 

Does this mean that non whites are more inclinded to break the law. Perhaps we are just allowing the wrong types into the country or maybe social deprivation is the problem.

 

Whatever the cause is it is clear that there is a problem of crime in some ethnic minority communities and we need to do something about it asap.

[Kthebean]

http://www.smartjustice.org/press6race.shtml

 

 

 

So this (if a little out of date) shows that there are less ethnic minority prisoners than White UK citizens but a greater proportion of ethnic minority prisoners than the general population of each group.

 

Does this mean that non whites are more inclinded to break the law. Perhaps we are just allowing the wrong types into the country or maybe social deprivation is the problem.

 

Whatever the cause is it is clear that there is a problem of crime in some ethnic minority communities and we need to do something about it asap.

 

You could by contrast say that men are far more likely to commit violent crime than women, does that mean that theres something wrong with our male population and we 'need to do something about it asap'? Its not the same but it does make you think it really depends on what part of a person you highlight.

 

For my part I think Trevor Phillips is a twit but he does suffer from similar problems to many in that his views often get soundbited for ease of the media which end up misrepresenting him if you read his actual words.

[Halibut]

http://www.smartjustice.org/press6race.shtml

 

 

 

So this (if a little out of date) shows that there are less ethnic minority prisoners than White UK citizens but a greater proportion of ethnic minority prisoners than the general population of each group.

 

Does this mean that non whites are more inclinded to break the law. Perhaps we are just allowing the wrong types into the country or maybe social deprivation is the problem.

 

Whatever the cause is it is clear that there is a problem of crime in some ethnic minority communities and we need to do something about it asap.

You could equally well use the figures to imply that the criminal justice system was institutionally racist.

[upinwath]

You could equally well use the figures to imply that the criminal justice system was institutionally racist.

 

One possible explanation but the most likely one is that many ethnic minority groups live in poor conditions and are self segragating as well as shunned by much of the white population.

 

This leads to great mistrust and a greater chance that these people will have less chance of good work and so turn to crime.

 

Assuming that much of this is race based we need to do something about it ASAP.

 

I wonder how many chinese turn to crime while here. I suspect much less than some other groups. If my hypothesis is proven then we could look at why they don't end up in a cycle of crime and perhaps understand the reasons other groups do.

 

Just an idea

[LordChaverly]

You could equally well use the figures to imply that the criminal justice system was institutionally racist.

 

You could, but you would be wrong, certainly on any objective analysis of the statistical evidence. The problem with the alternative view is that the Macpherson concept of 'institutional racism' is so subjective and arbitrary as to be virtually worthless as a means of finding causal explanations for statistical data, as of course is the Macpherson definition of a 'racist incident', i.e. any incident which is 'perceived to be racist by the victim or by any other person'.

[James7x7]

You could, but you would be wrong, certainly on any objective analysis of the statistical evidence. The problem with the alternative view is that the Macpherson concept of 'institutional racism' is so subjective and arbitrary as to be virtually worthless as a means of finding causal explanations for statistical data, as of course is the Macpherson definition of a 'racist incident', i.e. any incident which is 'perceived to be racist by the victim or by any other person'.

 

Halibut is not totally wrong. A number of factors come into play in this debate. The interactions between socio-economic status, ethnicity, educational attainment and gender, to which other posters have alluded are all important However, as I pointed out in an earlier post, some ethnic minority groups are more likely to be given a custodial sentence if convicted of a crime than white criminals. There may be some rational reasons for this, but racial prejudice may also be a relevent factor. Unfortunately, it's one that is not easy to measure.

[Stormy]

However, as I pointed out in an earlier post, some ethnic minority groups are more likely to be given a custodial sentence if convicted of a crime than white criminals.

 

Is there any evidence to back this up? Wouldn't have thought that these days judges/magistrates could get away with this...