Welfare state in meltdown

[madcow]

Why is it our eminent politicians, academics and a veritable plethora of other allegedly intelligent notables and society watcher’s are at a loss as to understand why our welfare state is in total and seemingly irrevocable meltdown ?

They all offer up the same inane reasons day in and day out as to why this institution ,once the envy of the entire civilised world, is collapsing around our ears, They tell us that years of over-spending, mis-management and persistent under-funding by previous governments, with a don’t blame us blame them attitude, are the reasons behind it all. Then, as if all that were not enough, they tell “oh yes and don’t forget our old people are living longer than ever causing further damage to the already over loaded welfare state” shame on our old folk, how inconsiderate of them to expect to be looked after and cared for by an institution they have paid into all their lives and in most case fought for one way or another.

Then our leaders and higher up’s tell us another contributory factor in the demise of our inheritance is the fact that more and more teenage girl’s are becoming pregnant at an ever increasing rate in order to avoid the need to work and thus be supported by state benefit’s.

May-be these are all true and perfectly valid reasons why the welfare state, as built by our fore-fathers is about to collapse. But have they ever stopped to consider that by importing the waif’s and strays of Eastern Europe and be-yond in their tens of thousands annually, may be the biggest reason for its collapse.

These poor unfortunate people that have travelled across several other European countries which could have taken them in but would have expected them to find work, to pay for there medical treatment, to pay for their local housing. They arrive here and we are only too willing to treat their sick ( over the past 5 year’s we have seen alarming increase’s in disease’s such as rickett’s and tuberculosis once eradicated from this country and potentially killers) free of charge, to house their families on our council estates ,ahead of our own people, who in most case’s have been on the waiting list’s for several year’s, free of charge, to hand out money so they can sit at home or drive around in car’s paid for by the social security, on our council estate’s . several local council’s and social security office’s give grant’s in excess of £2000 to buy car’s or to learn to drive, to unemployed asylum seekers and refugee’s supposedly in order for them to find work. Here’s the rub how-ever these grants are not available to you and I as we are in our own country and do not need such help!!!!! .Let’s not forget these poor unfortunate’s have not and in the vast majority of case’s will not ever put any thing back into the kitty which they are so eager to leech from.

If I as an ordinary working man in the street can see that we have a FINITE pot with a FINITE number of contributors and that it is financial suicide to have an INFINITE number of extractors taking from the pot.

The only way we may still stop the rot is to close our borders now and to eject those already here under false pretences, but of course our European masters will not allow us to do that. Result total and utter demolition of the WELFARE STATE and all it stood for.

[Sunshine Dee]

Oh for goodness sake, not this old tedious set of assumptions, prejudices and the use of innaccurate information about foreigners. AGAIN.

[JoeP]

Actually, it's a fallacy that people pay in to the Welfare State for their future; it's always been something that is paid in to now to pay for the requirements of the Welfare State now.

 

In other words, the elderley are no being paid for by their contributions; they're actually being paid for by the contributions made today. This is my undesrtanding, anyway. For all it's naming 'National Insurance' is, I believe, just another form of income tax.

 

To REALLY play Devil's Advocate here - and I come from a 'libertarian' view point - why not push the onus back on to people to pay for their own futures? There would need to be a phasing out period, and support for those already in receipt of or about to receive pensions, but just stop taking NI and reduce tax somewhat, and bring in subsidised health insurance and pensions that people are not compelled to pay in to but it's made clear that if they don't, it's their look-out?

 

Because I work as a contractor through an umbrella company, I pay about £150 a WEEK National insurance, made up of 'normal' NI and 'Employers' NI. That currently goes in to paying for the Health Service as it stands and the Pensions of those in receipt today. If I had that £600 a month to pay in to a 'Health and Pension Pot' I would certainly do so.

 

It's too easy to blame immigration for this problem. The Welfare State is a great idea, like the NHS, but it's 60+ years old and an institution that seems to be above question and analysis. It was created in a War that would devastate most of Europe, and was created by politicians who had seen and grown up with true poverty in this country. The world has changed - perhaps there is a need to change this institution as well, rather than keep it going forever.

[madcow]

Oh for goodness sake, not this old tedious set of assumptions, prejudices and the use of innaccurate information about foreigners. AGAIN.

ignoring it don't meant it 's not true, the truth is often hard for those who like to bury their heads in sand to take.

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there's non so blind as those that cannot see

[cressida]

the truth is, it isn't being run properly, square pegs in round holes springs to mind

[JoeP]

ignoring it don't meant it 's not true, the truth is often hard for those who like to bury their heads in sand to take.

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there's non so blind as those that cannot see

 

Actually, you've not given us any statistical information here.

 

So rather than assuming it's true, why not put up some figures?

 

I would prefer to be totally radical with the whole concept of the Welfare State - if people can afford consumer goodies and a high-consumption lifestyle, why should they expect the state to pay for them in later life?

[madcow]

whilst i totally agree with 95% of your reply ,surely you must agree our current system cannot continue to sustain the current levels of immigration.

[JoeP]

whilst i totally agree with 95% of your reply ,surely you must agree our current system cannot continue to sustain the current levels of immigration.

 

The problem is the decrease in USEFUL economic activity in our society. immigrants who work and contribute are more useful to the economy than people born here who just don't contribute to society in any way.

 

Blaming the failure of the Welfare State on Immigration is just targetting scapegoats; the true failure of the Welfare State and NHS is in assuming that money can continue to be found to meet the needs of an aging population. Being self-employed I have to pay my own sick pay, for example. I can pay private insurance to give me some income in the event of longer term illness. What's wrong with employees being placed in a similar situation? If I wish to take a 'duvet day' I do so and pay for it. It's not the end of the world - perhaps 'means test' things like SSP - once you earn above a certain amount then you no longer get SSP; you're expected to deal with it yourself and it might just encourage peopel to take better care of themselves.

 

We find money to spend on exhorbitant house prices, cars, holidays, consumer goods - but still expect to be able to spend Other People's Money when we get sick or stop working. That is the real problem.

[JFKvsNixon]

On 5 live a few weeks ago Polish immigrants were interviewed, the general concensus was that they plan to come here for around 10 years and then go back home. This means they pay 10 years of tax, paying for our pensions and NHS etc. They then go home to settle down and their spend savings. Because most plan on going home before they get old they will not claim much tratment from the NHS, they will not claim pensions here etc. So they are big net contributers to this country, and the wellfare system.

[Heyesey]

ignoring it don't meant it 's not true

 

 

Quite right.

 

 

It's the fact that immigrants take up a tiny, TINY percentage of welfare state payments that means it's not true.