Fingerprinting in pubs

[nightrider]

It would require new legislation for doormen to be able to force you to give up any details, which does include your fingerprints.

 

So this scenario at the moment at least is unlikely. Presently only the police could legally take your fingerprints after charging you and then enter them in the system.

 

except presumably they will simply refuse entry unless you provide the fingerprints so in effect you can either never go to the pub again or hand them over.

[Cyclone]

The scenario was that you would be refused entry for wearing the wrong clothes and then added to the system for arguing with the doormen.

 

There is a (slim) possibility that this system would not be a database of everyone, it could just be a database of those banned, in which case if you are banned the fingerprint will return a positive and if you aren't (9/10 times) it will return false and you can go in.

Taking everyones fingerprints at the pub door would probably be unworkable, the fingerprints are meaningless if not tied to an id, the doormen don't have the skill to check if an id is valid, nor do they have the time to keep entering new details into the system and/or asking if you are already in the system or not.

 

I suppose if the system is a minimal one, ie fingerprints of non matches are not retained, then the civil liberties issues are lessened, although not removed entirely, as only someone who's been charged by the police will be in the system in the first place (in which case their prints are already on file on the national database).

[DaBouncer]

Well I wouldn't have thought the fingerprint machine gathers data.

I would have thought it only uses informations from a police database.

 

Therefore you get fingerprinted.... lights up green... you go in.

Lights up red... you get refused and given a contact number to speak with if you feel the information is inaccurate.

 

Now what is the problem with that?

[DaBouncer]

The scenario was that you would be refused entry for wearing the wrong clothes and then added to the system for arguing with the doormen.

 

There is a (slim) possibility that this system would not be a database of everyone, it could just be a database of those banned, in which case if you are banned the fingerprint will return a positive and if you aren't (9/10 times) it will return false and you can go in.

Taking everyones fingerprints at the pub door would probably be unworkable, the fingerprints are meaningless if not tied to an id, the doormen don't have the skill to check if an id is valid, nor do they have the time to keep entering new details into the system and/or asking if you are already in the system or not.

 

I suppose if the system is a minimal one, ie fingerprints of non matches are not retained, then the civil liberties issues are lessened, although not removed entirely, as only someone who's been charged by the police will be in the system in the first place (in which case their prints are already on file on the national database).

This is how I see the system working.

Doorstaff simply don't have the resources to be gathering information from every patron that enters a bar... it's just not feasible.

 

Therefore it will simply check against people already in the database of known trouble makers. Doorstaff wont have the authroity to enter people onto the databse so even if you're refused entry on grounds of attire or arguing with the doorstaff STILL wont mean you get onto the database or barred from every venue.

 

This will only be if you've kicked off a fight in a venue, arrested and either given a public order offence or charged with a crime by the police. Then THEY will add you to the database.

 

Again.. the majority of people on here it wouldn't affect.

[Cyclone]

My argument is reduced to false positives and negatives really.

 

I've talked myself around, as it's clear that they don't actually need my fingerprint in the system to let me in, and capturing it would be meaningless as i'm not going to tell them my name and address at the same time.

[Darbees]

Well I wouldn't have thought the fingerprint machine gathers data.

I would have thought it only uses informations from a police database.

 

Therefore you get fingerprinted.... lights up green... you go in.

Lights up red... you get refused and given a contact number to speak with if you feel the information is inaccurate.

 

Now what is the problem with that?

So you ring the contact number at 10pm to find out why you've been denied access and they tell you to ring during day or write to them or something. Meanwhile all your friends have gone in without you. Have you ever tried to get information from the authorities? I found out that they have my dabs when they shouldn't have after an exhaustive enquiry and they refused to destroy them despite me not having been charged with anything.

 

There will always be trouble in places where people go at night and drink but this sort of thing will not stop it and has the potential to cause more when people are indignant at not being let into places.

[Becky B]

How long would it be before your details get sold to the bar managers so they can profile the sort of customers they get for marketing purposes?

 

It may not be possible I know, but I'm in the process of registering with MPS so it's on my mind

[nightrider]

This is how I see the system working.

Doorstaff simply don't have the resources to be gathering information from every patron that enters a bar... it's just not feasible.

 

Therefore it will simply check against people already in the database of known trouble makers. Doorstaff wont have the authroity to enter people onto the databse so even if you're refused entry on grounds of attire or arguing with the doorstaff STILL wont mean you get onto the database or barred from every venue.

 

This will only be if you've kicked off a fight in a venue, arrested and either given a public order offence or charged with a crime by the police. Then THEY will add you to the database.

 

Again.. the majority of people on here it wouldn't affect.

 

This is what I could not understand from the article linked. If it is as you say then I dont see the problem (apart from the fact cyclones calculations suggest it is going to have false positives etc). If they collect everyones fingerprints then I find that unacceptable and unneccessary.

[DaBouncer]

Well obviously you're arguing for the sake of it.

Yes I'm not doubting that you'll be inconvenienced if you're not allowed in the venue but there will have to be areas where people are just let down.

 

And if your friends are like that to go into a venue you have been left out of... then get some better friends in my opinion.

Not every venue (during the trials at least) have to use this equipment so just go somewhere that doesn't have it if you're that worried.

 

I think you're arguing a little too strong with the whole "they have my details and I don't know why". If you're that bothered about them (them = police) having your details then take it to court. Otherwise if you're unwilling to do something about it... stop bringing it up.

 

You're in the minority I wouldhave thought who's details may prevent them gaining access to a venue and the majority of law abiding non trouble causing citizens of this great city can carry on having a good time in the knowledge they're that bit safer from having some idiot ruin their evening by causing trouble.

 

End of!

[DaBouncer]

How long would it be before your details get sold to the bar managers so they can profile the sort of customers they get for marketing purposes?

 

It may not be possible I know, but I'm in the process of registering with MPS so it's on my mind

Who's selling your details? The police?