Rip Denny Laine

[ECCOnoob]

5 hours ago, Anna B said:

 

To get back to the original point of this thread, why do you think the ordinary people of this  country have lost the hard won advantages and opportunities of the most egalitarian society this country has ever known?

 

I don't.   You do and rather arrogantly think that your position is somehow so universally accepted as being right that it's beyond debate.

 

I don't even know what your patronising  sweeping generalisation of "ordinary people" is supposed to mean. 

[Anna B]

10 minutes ago, ECCOnoob said:

I don't.   You do and rather arrogantly think that your position is somehow so universally accepted as being right that it's beyond debate.

 

I don't even know what your patronising  sweeping generalisation of "ordinary people" is supposed to mean. 

Well I think the facts speak for themselves. It is the view of the poster who started this thread, and also many of the subsequent posters -  that the post war generation had a 'golden' time of it with all sorts of benefits and advantages, which have since been denied later generations.

I don't see how anyone can deny that.

 

My point is there was nobody prepared to fight to maintain those privileges because like me they thought once they were enshrined in law they were here in perpetuity. lt has been the Tory party that has reversed the law and done away with them all. 

 

I take ordinary people basically to mean the working class, but we're not supposed to use the term anymore so I would say anyone who pays tax via PAYE, and the growing number who are self- employed but in insecure work.                             

[trastrick]

3 hours ago, Anna B said:

I take ordinary people basically to mean the working class, but we're not supposed to use the term anymore so I would say anyone who pays tax via PAYE, and the growing number who are self- employed but in insecure work. 

Glad you gave a  shout out to the self employed, Anna.

 

Working Class?

 

As  a business owner, on the road for most of my working life, who had clients to satisfy, payrolls to meet, and ever more taxes to pay, I can assure you that I never worked harder in my life!

 

No clocking off at 5 for us! 

 

Edited November 21 by trastrick

[RollingJ]

7 hours ago, Organgrinder said:

The only ones I've seen are not about the thread subject but abut denigrating other posters.

Can I point you to just one of many then? 'South Yorkshire Transport needs improvement'. There have been others, but that one, at  least is still current.

[Organgrinder]

Any on the general discussions ?     Regarding the subject and not the posters ?

Count one hundred of them and see how many of them refer to the subject and how many are smart arse ?

 

[RollingJ]

16 minutes ago, Organgrinder said:

Any on the general discussions ?     Regarding the subject and not the posters ?

Count one hundred of them and see how many of them refer to the subject and how many are smart arse ?

 

No idea - but as usual, you are deflecting and exaggerating.  'Discussion' over.

[Chekhov]

On 19/11/2023 at 18:37, Anna B said:

Maybe there isn't much difference now between the Parties, but that didn't use to be the case.

 

Back before the 1970s 80s there was a great deal of difference, and Labour (and the unions) were most definitely on the side of the working man. But the Conservatives were very good at getting their message across, promising much yet delivering little under Thatcher, never mind that the message wasn't true. 

 

'Winter of discontent' springs to mind, although we've had more strikes under the Conservatives than Labour ever had, and people now look back on the 70s with affection compared to now.

Followed by 'who's in charge of the country' which gave the Tories their excuse to castrate the unions to make them as good as powerless and prepare the population for the next step, and to save save the Tories'  hides because they knew what was coming... - A move to close down manufacturing at the cost of multi-millions in unemployment, and devastating whole industries. 

It created poverty and an underclass from which the North has never really recovered.

 

In its place, the Tories / Thatcher made a move to take the country into the world of 'Financial management' by selling off the countries assets, and bribing the population with the chance to 'buy shares;' even lending them the money to do it which of course had to be paid back, but raised the value of the shares creating the rampant inflation of the 1980s. Small investors sold their shares for a small profit, but 'free market economics' benefitted the big multinational buyers enormously and lost this country the right to control it's own infrastructure as we now owned very little.

 

Our move into the financial sphere went well didn't it? A few Yuppies in the South East made it big time, but from then on for most it was all downhill in a race to the bottom.

Manipulation, and Corruption led to the financial crash of 2008 which finished off a lot of small and medium sized businesses. Quantatitive Easing made up the deficits and  never stopped, and now we're paying the price with rampant inflation again, which has just about finished us all off. Kids can't afford their own homes, the working poor abound, homelessness and hunger has increased, and people have (rightly) lost all faith in work being a way out of poverty.

 

The country has divided us into the poorer 99% and the wealthy 1%, and the gap has never been wider.  I agree that there are no signs of sense prevailing, as with the annihalation of last hope Corbyn, both parties are now wedded to Neoliberalism.  And we haven't yet reached the bottom. But without significant change, rest assured, we will.

I am afraid that, for once, I must disagree with you Anna that it's "all the fault of the Tories".

Quite apart from anything Labour have been in power for significant periods over the last 50 to 60 years ! In fact Labour first introduces university tuition fees in 1998 !

 

But, stuff like the likely restrictions and/or taxes on cars and flying etc (the so called "climate emergency") would, if anything, be even worse under a Labour government. Hasn't Starmer already said he'd reintroduce the 2030 deadline for the sale of new petrol / diesel cars ? Not that Sunak's much vaunted delay means much as, apparently, 80% of cars have to be electric by 2030 anyway.

Edited November 21 by Chekhov

[Chekhov]

18 hours ago, RJRB said:

I am sure that middle aged blokes in 2060 will be hankering after the good old days,(today)just as my parents looked back to their youth when I was having a great time in the 1960s and 70s.

Age and responsibility have much to do with it.

There has never been a golden age for everybody.

It is entirely possible that middle aged people in 2060 will be hankering after the good old days because it is almost certain that the stuff which most people don't like about the present time will get even worse by then. In fact I'd say it is almost certain.

I hate to think what will be banned or restricted or "regulated" by 2060, but it will be a lot of stuff. I hate to think what you will not be allowed to even say by then.

I also suspect the pensions time bomb may well have exploded by then, travel will be restricted (either by price or even by rationing), houses (particularly the sort of house people actually want) will be even more expensive, and, due to an aging population, service from the NHS may well be significantly worse.

 

17 hours ago, Bargepole23 said:

Are you old enough to have been signing on in the early 80's?

Just.

Edited November 21 by Chekhov

[Anna B]

4 hours ago, trastrick said:

Glad you gave a  shout out to the self employed, Anna.

 

Working Class?

 

As  a business owner, on the road for most of my working life, who had clients to satisfy, payrolls to meet, and ever more taxes to pay, I can assure you that I never worked harder in my life!

 

No clocking off at 5 for us! 

 

Thankyou. I have previously defined the working class as anyone who works for a living, but was ridiculed for it. I believe anyone who works and pays all their taxes is the lifeblood of the country. Bur rather than criticise the super rich who do not pay their fair share in tax (ie 30% without recourse to dodgy tax avoiding accountants) people turn instead on the poorest in society and blame them for our problems.

 

lt's a misconception that I am deeply'left wing' and have something against big business. Not true, I just believe business owners and their employees are an interdependent team, and should work together with mutual respect and consideration. Unfortunately that no longer seems to be the case with big businesses such as Amazon, whose only concern is big profits at the expense of their employees who are considered unimportant, disposable minions.

 

With the demise of the Unions these workers no longer have anyone fighting their corner, and help is sorely needed. 

Edited November 21 by Anna B

[*_ash_*]

6 hours ago, Anna B said:

Thankyou. I have previously defined the working class as anyone who works for a living, but was ridiculed for it. I believe anyone who works and pays all their taxes is the lifeblood of the country. Bur rather than criticise the super rich who do not pay their fair share in tax (ie 30% without recourse to dodgy tax avoiding accountants) people turn instead on the poorest in society and blame them for our problems.

 

lt's a misconception that I am deeply'left wing' and have something against big business. Not true, I just believe business owners and their employees are an interdependent team, and should work together with mutual respect and consideration. Unfortunately that no longer seems to be the case with big businesses such as Amazon, whose only concern is big profits at the expense of their employees who are considered unimportant, disposable minions.

 

With the demise of the Unions these workers no longer have anyone fighting their corner, and help is sorely needed. 

The last two pages of your posts look like ranting, so I think you've lost your temper.

 

Can I ask you a question... 

 

what do you think of working class (your definition of, meaning people who work hard and paying their taxes)

buying stuff from Amazon? 

[*_ash_*]

6 hours ago, Anna B said:

lt's a misconception that I am deeply'left wing' and have something against big business.

I think people do use 'leftie' a lot, probably me included. I don't think you are deeply left wing.

 

However, maybe I would just use it because it's an easier way of typing something like: ideologist with no reasonable answers or logical thought to how to fix genuine problems that either have been proven not to work, or simply won't work because they are simply ideologies.

 

To give an extreme example: All people should live together in peace and harmony.

This kind of ideology is drummed into Brits, AND Europeans for a few decades (and USA too, we follow them!). I actually think this kind of attempted indocrination is actually bad for society, because it's trying to brush over issues that affect people every day... like the issues you mention, but on a much bigger scale.

 

I don't think society is much different to other times, or other countries. There have ALWAYS been 'super' rich people, and always been the rest of us. 

 

I think the problem is that both Labour and Tory are both crap. They don't care about the future. They care about the next 4 years and keeping their wages and pension, and to be honest, if I was a politician without savings, I would probably follow the pack too. I'd be happy to hear from anyone that doesn't think about their own welfare and their families welfare before the people who will be alive in 50, 100 years. 

 

 

[Organgrinder]

4 hours ago, *_ash_* said:

 

I think the problem is that both Labour and Tory are both crap. They don't care about the future. They care about the next 4 years and keeping their wages and pension, and to be honest, if I was a politician without savings, I would probably follow the pack too. I'd be happy to hear from anyone that doesn't think about their own welfare and their families welfare before the people who will be alive in 50, 100 years. 

 

There are many people who don't,  including myself.

Another thing to bear in mind is the fact that most of us will have members of our own families who will or should be, still be alive in 5o or 100 years so we are not only considering total strangers.

I don't want to think that my children and down to my great grandchildren will suffer the full effects of climate change and the inevitable mass migration of billions of people,

all fighting for somewhere new and safe to settle and live out their lives.  In the meantime we could be doing something about it but we let corrupt ministers pocket millions to let g business carry on wrecking.