Bargepole23 337 #25 Posted May 25, 2022 39 minutes ago, Chekhov said: I am not saying all workers should be banned from striking, I am very specifically saying that workers who provide an essential (to many people) public service, particularly one that is heavily subsidised, should not be able to hold the country to ransom for excessive wage claims. If the train drivers think they can get more money doing something else, then go and get a job somewhere else. If the train companies then run short of drivers they will increase the wages, that's how it works. So a race to the bottom wage-wise, and you will end up with a disenchanted workforce, and attract those with the ability and will to accept the lowest of pay and conditions. That's not who I want driving trains transporting hundreds of people. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
Organgrinder 1,930 #26 Posted May 25, 2022 23 hours ago, Chekhov said: I have zero sympathy for the train drivers. Let's face it they are over paid anyway, and I define that not just by the rumoured £50k plus they get paid, but by the fact by their wages are not being set by supply and demand of labour (like almost everyone else, why are they so special ?) but by the fact they have industrial muscle (as in they can hugely inconvenience millions of people). In my view there is an argument they, as a public service, should not be able to go on strike. They may then lose the right to strike, but they will still retain the ultimate right to leave and get another job somewhere else. If the RMT / ASLEF think their jobs are all so special let's see how much the market pays them, then we will see they have no clothes. I wonder how much sympathy they will get when there are so many people really struggling, or will be really struggling in the not too distant future. The fact is that for the vast majority of people it's the market that sets the wages, supply and demand. Which is why a footballer can be paid millions and a carer just the minimum wage* , and also why just recently truck drivers (and to a lesser extent bus drivers) got big wage rises. If people want more money they either have to do more hours, get promotion or get another job, why should train staff be any different ? Even worse they severely inconvenience millions of people who have no part in their dispute. It's inexcusable. *not that I think the minimum wage is peanuts anymore, it's nearly £10 an hour, 25% more than I got when I started on as an assistant manager in a tool hire shop (adjusted for inflation). You sound more like a Tory government minister ever day. The thing that binds all those who believe that the minimum wage is not peanuts is that, not a single one of them has to live on that amount. It's easy to say, "Do as I say, not as I do" Especially if you are an uncaring Tory voter. It's inexcusable that so many want more for them but less for everybody else. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
El Cid 177 #27 Posted May 25, 2022 1 hour ago, Bargepole23 said: So a race to the bottom wage-wise, and you will end up with a disenchanted workforce, and attract those with the ability and will to accept the lowest of pay and conditions. Brexit was about this very thing, insuring a short supply of labour Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
Resident 1,069 #28 Posted May 25, 2022 2 hours ago, Chekhov said: I am not saying all workers should be banned from striking, I am very specifically saying that workers who provide an essential (to many people) public service, particularly one that is heavily subsidised, should not be able to hold the country to ransom for excessive wage claims. If the train drivers think they can get more money doing something else, then go and get a job somewhere else. If the train companies then run short of drivers they will increase the wages, that's how it works. 1 hour ago, Bargepole23 said: So a race to the bottom wage-wise, and you will end up with a disenchanted workforce, and attract those with the ability and will to accept the lowest of pay and conditions. That's not who I want driving trains transporting hundreds of people. Margaret, see the above response. If all the train drivers quit right now, do you think the companies would be rubbing their hands and offering new applicants a lower wage? You clearly don't understand how employment market forces work. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
El Cid 177 #29 Posted May 25, 2022 32 minutes ago, Resident said: If all the train drivers quit right now, do you think the companies would be rubbing their hands and offering new applicants a lower wage? You clearly don't understand how employment market forces work. A shortage of workers will always lead to an employer being held to ransom when it comes to wages. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
Chekhov 464 #30 Posted May 25, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Bargepole23 said: So a race to the bottom wage-wise, and you will end up with a disenchanted workforce, and attract those with the ability and will to accept the lowest of pay and conditions. That's not who I want driving trains transporting hundreds of people. Sorry, why is this a race to the bottom ? Or are you saying everyone should be paid more (with no increase in productivity) and the railway unions are valiantly battling for us all to get more money ? If so all you will get is inflation. It's quite simple, we live in a free market economy which, by the way, is by far the best way of maximising the efficiency of the economy, and, incidentally, raising the standards of living of everyone and paying huge amounts of tax for the NHS etc. It is efficient because it directs capital and labour (mainly, but not exclusively, by means of higher or lower wages) towards their most efficient use. The RM, or whatever they call themselves these days, are trying to bypass that by trying to grab more than they deserve by massively inconveniencing millions of people. 1 hour ago, Organgrinder said: You sound more like a Tory government minister ever day. The thing that binds all those who believe that the minimum wage is not peanuts is that, not a single one of them has to live on that amount. It's easy to say, "Do as I say, not as I do" Especially if you are an uncaring Tory voter. It's inexcusable that so many want more for them but less for everybody else. Up till the other week I had never voted Tory before, as you may know what has changed my mind forever was Labour's attitude during the pandemic. But the point is that even as a Labour / LibDem voter I was angry about powerful unions blackmailing the UK population for higher wages. And you are right : It's inexcusable that so many want more for them but less for everybody else. That's exactly what the RMT are doing. I do not think the minimum wage is peanuts, for years I worked for less than that. In fact in the last five years there has been the odd year when my business hasn't been doing too well I would have been on more or less that. But did I complain ? No. Edited May 25, 2022 by Chekhov Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
Chekhov 464 #31 Posted May 25, 2022 56 minutes ago, Resident said: Margaret, see the above response. If all the train drivers quit right now, do you think the companies would be rubbing their hands and offering new applicants a lower wage? You clearly don't understand how employment market forces work. No, I do, and its Unions like the RMT that are trying to circumvent it. If there were fewer people wanting to be train drivers than there were jobs for train drivers the wages would go up and vice verse. What makes I find even harder to accept about the RMT is they want to get round that by hugely disrupting many people's lives, then, in the final analysis, the tax payer will be helping fund their ill gotten wage rises because, as we all know, the railways get huge subsidy from the government (i.e. us tax payers) It make me feel sick. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
L00b 441 #32 Posted May 25, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, Chekhov said: Come off it, you know as well as I do the train crews , esp the drivers, would not be getting what they do were it not for their industrial muscle, which they are very willing to (selfishly) use. I have heard salaries of £50K plus mentioned, and it's even worse in London Underground drivers. When I hear that I start wanting driverless trains because that is just taking the ****. (…) Just out of interest, how much do you think “living with the image of some poor sap diving under your train or Tube, for the rest of your life” is worth, in your open market economy? Is a psychopath diagnosis desirable on a train or Tube driver CV, and therefore worth more, to mitigate counselling costs? Just a minute aspect of everything that goes into the overall package, besides all other variables. Since you believe that £50k is too much, then what do you think a train driver is worth? [show your workings for full marks] Edited May 25, 2022 by L00b Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
Chekhov 464 #33 Posted May 25, 2022 27 minutes ago, El Cid said: A shortage of workers will always lead to an employer being held to ransom when it comes to wages. If it is a genuine shortage of workers, and not an artificial one like a strike, then I do not see that as employers being held to ransom. Such a situation would result it increased wages, that's the market, it works both ways (even though left wing Union leaders will not admit that). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
Chekhov 464 #34 Posted May 25, 2022 Just now, L00b said: Just out of interest, how much do is living with the image of some poor sap diving under your train or Tube, for the rest of your life, worth in your open market economy? I agree that would be the worst part of being a train driver. I think that is a particularly selfish way of topping yourself. As an indication, if a coach driver gets £25,000 a year I'd have thought in that area, but it is not for me to say what is the right level of payment, it is for the market to determine that : Companies are experiencing difficulties recruiting train drivers = increase the pay Companies are experiencing no difficulties recruiting train drivers = do not increase the pay (effectively a pay cut in these inflationary times) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
L00b 441 #35 Posted May 25, 2022 37 minutes ago, Chekhov said: I agree that would be the worst part of being a train driver. I think that is a particularly selfish way of topping yourself. As an indication, if a coach driver gets £25,000 a year I'd have thought in that area, but it is not for me to say what is the right level of payment, it is for the market to determine that : Companies are experiencing difficulties recruiting train drivers = increase the pay Companies are experiencing no difficulties recruiting train drivers = do not increase the pay (effectively a pay cut in these inflationary times) But you see, that’s just the thing: we’ve established earlier in the thread, that train drivers are employed by private companies, and these determine the market rate, since they set the packages. Union membership and Union pressure is costed in, same as in any other industry employing unionised labour. Your gripe would look more legitimate, if it was directed at the cost of disruption on the occasion of a strike. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
Resident 1,069 #36 Posted May 25, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Chekhov said: I agree that would be the worst part of being a train driver. I think that is a particularly selfish way of topping yourself. As an indication, if a coach driver gets £25,000 a year I'd have thought in that area, but it is not for me to say what is the right level of payment, it is for the market to determine that : Companies are experiencing difficulties recruiting train drivers = increase the pay Companies are experiencing no difficulties recruiting train drivers = do not increase the pay (effectively a pay cut in these inflationary times) As someone who holds a PCV licence and has friends who are (well were, they're management now). The difference between driving a coach and driving a train is the difference between riding a bike with stabilisers in a park and driving a car on the motorway with heavy traffic. From said friend (because train companies/TOC don't publish the figures) most applicants wash out at the first assessment, prior to the interview stage. If you pass the interview stage (of which there are 2) then there are 7 brutal tests on your visual/auditory acuity, cognitive reflexes & co-ordination. Less than half get through this stage & once in the job the fall-out rate (quits within first 6months) is high due to the stress. The wage reflects all of this. Surgeons are paid from public funding as are nurses. Should we tell surgeons that they're overpaid and should do the job at the same pay as nurses? Edited May 25, 2022 by Resident Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...