Vegans V Vegetarians

[Chekhov 488]

On 13/05/2022 at 20:56, CaptainSwing said:

OK let's review the discussion so far.  The claim is that "Many vegetarians are not happy at only being given vegan options" (post #37).  So far, the evidence for the prosecution is:

-- The opinion of your wife, who is not a vegetarian.

-- A clickbait article in the Guardian that didn't contain any evidence that would hold up in court.

-- An item on Radio 4 which I didn't hear but presumably didn't contain any evidence either, since you describe it as a "love in" and a "pointless exercise".

Against this, all of the vegetarians on the forum who have contributed to this thread have said that they don't mind only being given vegan options.  Which seems plausible a priori - it's hard to imagine anybody craving dairy products to the extent that they need to have them at every meal.

Really ?

Vegan food it just as popular as vegetarian food (i.e. incl dairy, eggs etc) is it ?

 

The Times Mon 23 Jan 2023 (p14)

 

Last year when Cambridge council voted to [eventually] phase out serving meat and dairy products and [only] provide vegan alternatives they were praised [by some people]  for "leading the way on climate action". 
But the plan has hit a big problem, people do not want the food.
At the first civic event since the vote, a council report has revealed the vegan menu went down so badly that almost all of the [vegan plant based] food remained uneaten and had to be thrown away. It noted that only 1 in 10 attendees tried the vegan options and some guests were left hungry because there was "an insufficient amount of food available that people actually wanted to eat"........ Half of the sandwiches and cakes were vegan and half contained meat or dairy. The report [to the council] said that despite the food looking "very fresh, good quality and visually appealing" almost all the vegan options remained untouched. "There was extremely low uptake of plant based food options : under 10% of people tried these options whilst the vegetarian and/or meat/dairy options were all eaten". The report recommended cutting the amount of vegan food served to only 25%, but the council [still] announced that it wanted to offer 100% plant based vegan food by 2026.

Edited January 26, 2023 by Chekhov

[altus 540]

1 hour ago, Chekhov said:

Really ?

Vegan food it just as popular as vegetarian food (i.e. incl dairy, eggs etc) is it ?

 

The Times Mon 23 Jan 2023 (p14)

 

Last year when Cambridge council voted to [eventually] phase out serving meat and dairy products and [only] provide vegan alternatives they were praised [by some people]  for "leading the way on climate action". 
But the plan has hit a big problem, people do not want the food.
At the first civic event since the vote, a council report has revealed the vegan menu went down so badly that almost all of the [vegan plant based] food remained uneaten and had to be thrown away. It noted that only 1 in 10 attendees tried the vegan options and some guests were left hungry because there was "an insufficient amount of food available that people actually wanted to eat"........ Half of the sandwiches and cakes were vegan and half contained meat or dairy. The report [to the council] said that despite the food looking "very fresh, good quality and visually appealing" almost all the vegan options remained untouched. "There was extremely low uptake of plant based food options : under 10% of people tried these options whilst the vegetarian and/or meat/dairy options were all eaten". The report recommended cutting the amount of vegan food served to only 25%, but the council [still] announced that it wanted to offer 100% plant based vegan food by 2026.

That's hardly an indication of vegetarians' opinions on only vegan food being available though.

 

Also, what was "the first civic event since the vote"? If it was a meeting with local livestock farmers and butchers, they might be less receptive to vegan food than the general population.

[Chekhov 488]

43 minutes ago, altus said:

That's hardly an indication of vegetarians' opinions on only vegan food being available though.

 

Also, what was "the first civic event since the vote"? If it was a meeting with local livestock farmers and butchers, they might be less receptive to vegan food than the general population.

It was a Remembrance Sunday event.

 

>>That's hardly an indication of vegetarians' opinions on only vegan food being available though.<<

 

Are you saying there were no vegetarians there ?

I think you missed this line (even though I highlighted it ! ) :

 

 "There was extremely low uptake of plant based food options : under 10% of people tried these options whilst the vegetarian and/or meat/dairy options were all eaten". 

 

The point is that vegan options are NOT an adequate substitute for vegetarian ones (i.e. ones incl dairy, eggs, yeast etc etc). That's just obvious really, I cannot see why people on here are arguing about it. The best they seem to come up with is that some*  vegetarians will eat it reasonably happily as its better than no option they can eat at all.

 

* maybe even most, so long as its a temporary issue, otherwise, err, they'd be vegans and not vegetarians....

Edited January 26, 2023 by Chekhov

[onewheeldave 22]

 

On 16/05/2022 at 16:13, steve68 said:

Personally I find there is an abundant variety of vegan ingredients  that are available these days, therefore going Vegan it isn't limiting in anyway,  either when home cooking or eating out.

 

 

Problems with vegan alternatives are not soley to do with taste.

Vegan cheese for example, is a highly processed food made primarily from [usually] coconut oil.

 

Highly processed foods are a prime driver of the array of chronic diseases that are afflicting the western world and there are some people who will happily eat real cheese but not vegan cheese.

 

A couple of decades back vegans would generally be having to eat a lot of healthy plant foods, because the food industry was not catering to vegans- that has now changed massively- any large supermarket is stocking vegan ice cream, vegan pizza, vegan doughnuts etc, etc- all highly processed junk that damages human health when eaten in anything but small amounts.

 

[check out the ingredients list on these highly processed vegan foods- you'll probably need a magnifying glass :)]

 

 

Edited January 26, 2023 by onewheeldave

[altus 540]

3 minutes ago, Chekhov said:

It was a Remembrance Sunday event.

So likely older people, less willing to try vegan or even vegetarian food.

 

Quote

Are you saying there were no vegetarians there ?

Not at all.

 

Quote

I think you missed this line (even though I highlighted it ! ) :

 

 "There was extremely low uptake of plant based food options : under 10% of people tried these options whilst the vegetarian and/or meat/dairy options were all eaten". 

I didn't miss the line. You don't know the dietary preferences of those attending or what they ate. For all you know, any (if there were any) vegetarians attending might have only eaten the vegan food.

[Chekhov 488]

1 hour ago, altus said:

So likely older people, less willing to try vegan or even vegetarian food.

 

Not at all.

 

I didn't miss the line. You don't know the dietary preferences of those attending or what they ate. For all you know, any (if there were any) vegetarians attending might have only eaten the vegan food.

I doubt that very much. Surely, given a choice, a vegetarian would eat a cheese sandwich (as in real cheese) rather than a non dairy faux cheese. In fact I'm certain of it because, if they were quite happy to eat faux cheese etc, they'd be vegans, but they're not.

 

>>So likely older people [at a remembrance day function]<<

 

So only older people go to remembrance day functions, though that's an ageist comment anyway.

But surely we're going all round the houses arguing black is white. 

Why do people choose to be vegetarians rather than vegans ?

There's  a difference.

It is obvious it is more difficult to find food you like as you limit what you are prepared to eat. Thus why would a vegetarian, or anyone else, be happy to limit what they can eat in order to make the catering easier ? Nobody would be happy to do that.

 

 

[Chekhov 488]

3 hours ago, altus said:

That's hardly an indication of vegetarians' opinions on only vegan food being available though.

 

Also, what was "the first civic event since the vote"? If it was a meeting with local livestock farmers and butchers, they might be less receptive to vegan food than the general population.

Actually A, I have a question for you.

 

Do you think it reasonable, or even acceptable, for Cambridge council to  only serve Vegan food at its functions from 2026 ?

 

And, if you don't think it reasonable, what percentage of the food they serve should be Vegan when only  about 3% of the UK population is vegan ? 

Personally I'd be saying 5% maximum.

Edited January 26, 2023 by Chekhov

[altus 540]

6 minutes ago, Chekhov said:

I doubt that very much. Surely, given a choice, a vegetarian would eat a cheese sandwich (as in real cheese) rather than a non dairy faux cheese. In fact I'm certain of it because, if they were quite happy to eat faux cheese etc, they'd be vegans, but they're not.

My point was - you don't know. You don't know what the vegan food consisted of either. You have nothing to indicate that any faux cheese was there at all.

 

Quote

So only older people go to remembrance day functions, though that's an ageist comment anyway.

I used the word "likely", not "only".

 

Quote

Why do people choose to be vegetarians rather than vegans ?

There's  a difference.

It is obvious it is more difficult to find food you like as you limit what you are prepared to eat. Thus why would a vegetarian, or anyone else, be happy to limit what they can eat in order to make the catering easier ? Nobody would be happy to do that.

Because you consider the most important factor for people choosing to be vegetarian or vegan is how easy it is to obtain food and not anything to do with animal welfare or the impact on the environment, etc.

[altus 540]

6 minutes ago, Chekhov said:

Actually A, I have a question for you.

 

Do you think it reasonable, or even acceptable, for Cambridge council to  only serve Vegan food at its functions from 2026 ?

 

And, if you don't think it reasonable, what percentage of the food they serve should be Vegan when only  about 3% of the UK population is vegan ? 

Personally I'd be saying 5% maximum.

I don't have a particular problem with it, and it certainly has advantages - pretty much everyone can eat it[1] and it neatly sidesteps issues with Halal/Kosher and other restrictions on people's diets.

 

As to whether it's reasonable? Look at it this way, for decades vegetarians and vegans were not catered for at all at council functions. At least meat eaters can eat vegan food. That's why you won't get much sympathy for your position from vegetarians or vegans.

 

 

[1] Allergies excepted, but that's a bigger issue for non-vegan food since you also have lactose intolerance to deal with as well.

[Chekhov 488]

2 hours ago, altus said:

>>Chekhov said :

Why do people choose to be vegetarians rather than vegans ?

There's  a difference.

It is obvious it is more difficult to find food you like as you limit what you are prepared to eat. Thus why would a vegetarian, or anyone else, be happy to limit what they can eat in order to make the catering easier ? Nobody would be happy to do that.<<

 

Because you consider the most important factor for people choosing to be vegetarian or vegan is how easy it is to obtain food and not anything to do with animal welfare or the impact on the environment, etc.

>>Because you consider the most important factor for people choosing to be vegetarian or vegan is how easy it is to obtain food <<

 

I didn't say that did I ?

If people were primarily bothered about how easy it was to obtain food they might like they'd be neither a vegetarian nor a vegan !

But if vegetarians do not think eating free range eggs or drinking milk is not bad enough to avoid those products then they eat them because they like them (or the foods they are in, and I don't blame them !

Not strictly speaking relevant for this thread but personally speaking I can understand why people would want to be vegetarian (though I am not one myself), I can't so much understand why people would want to be  vegan. Much harder and, to me, less reason to bother.

[Chekhov 488]

2 hours ago, altus said:

I don't have a particular problem with it [Cambridge Council only serving Vegan food at its functions], and it certainly has advantages - pretty much everyone can eat it[1] and it neatly sidesteps issues with Halal/Kosher and other restrictions on people's diets.

 

As to whether it's reasonable? Look at it this way, for decades vegetarians and vegans were not catered for at all at council functions. At least meat eaters can eat vegan food. That's why you won't get much sympathy for your position from vegetarians or vegans.

 

[1] Allergies excepted, but that's a bigger issue for non-vegan food since you also have lactose intolerance to deal with as well.

That's a bit of a disgrace I think.

Why should people be banned from eating what they can eat anywhere else, particularly when they are in the overwhelming majority AND the overwhelming  majority of those paying all the taxes for those functions also eat meat etc.

 

>>pretty much everyone can eat it. At least meat eaters can eat vegan food.<<

 

But most people don't want to eat it ! The Times article proves what we all know anyway.

Serving people food on the basis that "anyone can eat it" is no argument at all, otherwise all restaurants would do that. I am sure it'd make their lives much easier if they could get away with it, but they could not because, err, their takings would drop through the floor. Cambridge council are taking advantage of the fact that, in their functions, there would not be any choice.

 

>>That's why you won't get much sympathy for your position from vegetarians or vegans.<<

 

I am not asking for sympathy, I am asking about what you think is fair. And I suspect, from your answer, you may be a bit of a vegan militant.

 

[RJRB 688]

There is a vastly increased presence of Vegan options in supermarkets,to the extent that a chiller or two is dedicated to certain items and other bits and pieces are scattered around with other foodstuffs.

I can understand why any business would try to streamline their product lines to avoid wastage.

It might not be ideal for an individual taste or requirement but if the profitable demand was there then it would be catered for.