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Buses - Are We Jealous Sheffield?

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9 minutes ago, LovePotion said:

Most of those 12 million trips you speak of are kids going to Meadowhall to spend their pocket money. 

You are funny. Can I be your friend?

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29 minutes ago, LovePotion said:

They can use the money they would have spent on maintaining the tracks and the trams to wind things down. Money they would have paid operational staff and for engineering parts etc.

 

Most of those 12 million trips you speak of are kids going to Meadowhall to spend their pocket money. I'm sure they can happily take one of the many bus services e.g. X78 which runs more directly. All of the other routes are duplicated by bus services which go closer to where people want to be e.g. the bus goes right through the Stannington Estate, not just Malin Bridge. More bus usage will allow bus companies to improve the services.

I think you crazy. At least your writing suggest some sort of confused fantasy cloud cuckoo line of dreaming.

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7 minutes ago, LovePotion said:

How polite and respectful...🙄

I am sorry but if you post absolutely bonkers suggestions its perfectky reasonable for you to be called out on them.

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Let me be a bit more respectful here.

 

Money seems to be a big issue for some people here. 

This obsession with money and tax could ruin your life and cause things like depression. 

Use the extra time waiting for a bus to enjoy life and all its relaxing beautiful moments.

Edited by dutch

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10 hours ago, RollingJ said:

Manchester/Nottingham have regular 'Revenue Protection' roving teams - and I think, but can't confirm because I've never fallen foul of the system - they issue penalty fares at £10/20 if you get caught. Will check on the Blackpool system next week-end and others later in the year when I go on my travels.

On the railways a criminal offence can be committed if a passenger has deliberately avoided buying a ticket, interviews can be under caution and the BTP can be called to detain/arrest. Courts are regularly used to enforce Railway Bye-laws or Criminal offences pertaining to non-payment of fares.  Tram and bus operators do not have the Laws or the will.

The dodgers know that the no steps can be enforced by Supertram staff and our police will not support the tram staff in trying to get money. Similarly in Nottingham the staff do not involve themselves in confrontations. In Manchester private security companies are used but they have no legal powers at all. 

 

Passengers like having conductors on the trams.

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6 minutes ago, Annie Bynnol said:

On the railways a criminal offence can be committed if a passenger has deliberately avoided buying a ticket, interviews can be under caution and the BTP can be called to detain/arrest. Courts are regularly used to enforce Railway Bye-laws or Criminal offences pertaining to non-payment of fares.  Tram and bus operators do not have the Laws or the will.

The dodgers know that the no steps can be enforced by Supertram staff and our police will not support the tram staff in trying to get money. Similarly in Nottingham the staff do not involve themselves in confrontations. In Manchester private security companies are used but they have no legal powers at all. 

 

Passengers like having conductors on the trams.

I thought that this was avoided by having a "standard fare" (£100 or whatever) which can be avoided by having a proper, discounted ticket.

Many passengers on Supertram like having conductors because they know that they cannot make their way down the carriages during rush hour/school runs.

 

Many times have I wondered as to why I had bought a day/return ticket only for a conductor to ignore me on a quiet tram.

Many times I have wondered why my Council Tax goes towards a system that has conductors that walk past me holding my money out (clearly visible).

Edited by cgksheff

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2 minutes ago, LovePotion said:

I believe that trams do have the laws. In Nottingham, I recall a sign saying anyone on the platform without a ticket could be Penaltied or prosecuted. Stagecoach advertise at tram stops that a penalty is payable if you finish your journey without paying but I've only ever seem Officers as Meadowhall Interchange (regularly) and the train station tram stop occasionally.  All major bus companies have Officers too who get on the bus and check but I've not seen any for about 6 years. I believe the Stagecoach men who used to sell tickets at the bus stops were also Officers.

They could be prosecuted but they wont.

The term Officers has no meaning unless you mean ticket inspectors.

The Criminal Laws and Bye-laws that the railways have are specific to the railways- they do not apply to buses and trams.

The Revenue Protection Inspectors on the railways have powers to interview under caution.   A condition of carriage on the railway require a passenger to show a valid ticket and if not to provide an address. If Guard offers and the passenger is willing a Penalty Fare + standard fare can be paid. The BTP, if available, have the power to remove, arrest or detain. Otherwise the matter will be dealt with by the legal team of the train company who decide what the next step is.

Buses and Tram operators have no Laws except those available to any other business owner who has a customer who will not pay. The police in many areas have made it very clear that they do not prioritise non-payment of fares and unless other criminal activity is involved will not appear. The dodgers know this. They also know that threats in the form of Penalty payments will never get to Court. In Europe much heavier penalties are the norm (months pay is common) and are applied by Magistrate within hours of the offence to your wages. 

 

There are some exceptions where tram or bus stops are within railway territory eg. Manchester Victoria and where specific Bye-laws apply eg. Piccadilly Gardens.

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2 hours ago, cgksheff said:

Many times I have wondered why my Council Tax goes towards a system that has conductors that walk past me holding my money out (clearly visible).

If I recall correctly, the tram operator, Stagecoach takes the revenue risk, so it makes not a jot of difference to your taxes whether the conductor collects the fare or not.

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8 minutes ago, Planner1 said:

If I recall correctly, the tram operator, Stagecoach takes the revenue risk, so it makes not a jot of difference to your taxes whether the conductor collects the fare or not.

Wow!

So Stagecoach have a deal with local and national government that means that fare collection is irrelevant?

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9 hours ago, cgksheff said:

Wow!

So Stagecoach have a deal with local and national government that means that fare collection is irrelevant?

No. Taking the revenue risk means that the operator takes the risk on whether or not the fare income covers their costs.

 

The operating contract they have for the supertram is a fixed cost that Stagecoach pay the PTE/MCA, so collecting fares or not only affects Stagecoach's income.

 

National government have no role n the operating contract for supertram. 

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15 hours ago, LovePotion said:

The Guards on Railways aren't authorised PF collectors, except for on South Eastern Railway.  These are the Supertram bylaws here :- https://www.stagecoachbus.com/supertram/supertram-by-laws

Extract from Stagecoach By laws: "9. If a person travelling on Supertram, on being required to do so by an Authorised Officer, fails to produce a Ticket or a general travel authority, they shall be liable if required by an Authorised Officer to pay a Penalty Fare of £10 or such other amount as may be prescribed by Order of the Secretary of State for Transport from time to time and may be liable to prosecution under the South Yorkshire Light Rail Transit Act 1989."

Supertram fare evasion is not deterred by this. I am not even going to try and go into the myriad  of regulations rail, metro, underground, tram and bus operators have can invoke, suffice it to say that the railways have Criminal Law, tried and tested Civil Law and the legal enforcement manpower on their side- Supertram and the buses do not. Supertram is not able to call on the BTP and is not going to Court to force a £10 award in a civil case that will cost them hundreds to process.

 

On some railway routes a 'Guard' etc. can choose to issue a PFN if the passenger is willing to accept its conditions. TPE and other operators also have facilities to pay immediately online. Some trains have no guards or conductors and RPI's and some gate line staff guards and conductors are collectors. The point being that there very little deterrence on Supertram.

 

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21 hours ago, busdriver1 said:

This used to be the case on the Tyne & wear Metro system where any incidents of overhead lines coming down were blamed on vandalism but in actual fact they were down to bad maintenance and they got found out and stopped. 

As an aside, the TW Metro have machines where you buy tickets and regular enforcement officers checking tickets and issuing heavy fines. I dont think any machines have been vandalised, or have they just worn that excuse out? 

A week to the day, another section of the overhead wires have fallen down again. This time at Beighton. 
 

Blue line services are currently terminating at Donetsk Way.

 

Surely heads should be rolling at both Supertram and SYPTE who own the infrastructure. Major questions also need to be raised as to whether the system is safe to travel on! 

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