Compulsory Vaccination?

[onewheeldave 22]

55 minutes ago, Chekhov said:

....I am quite clear in my views and have been from March 2020, I think the response to Covid has been the biggest over reaction in the history of the world. And any (genuine) students of history would agree with me.

 

The covid over-reaction brings to mind this-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania

as a similar kind of mass delusion.

 

Historically of course, the phenomenom of 'mass hysteria' is well documented

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_hysteria_cases

one obvious example being the witch hunts of earlier centuries.

 

I believe that the covid over-reaction is perhaps the first example of a global mass hysteria. Probably enabled/facilitated by the relatively new incidence of global communication made possible by recent technology; if that is the case we should expect more cases of global mass hysteria.

Edited December 6, 2021 by onewheeldave

[top4718 838]

54 minutes ago, Carbuncle said:

Some documents relating to the meeting of SAGE at the end of November were released a couple of days ago. NERVTAG (New and Emerging Respiratory Virus Threat Advisory Group), one of the advisory groups that feeds into SAGE released some initial observations on the omicron variant ( https://app.box.com/s/3lkcbxepqixkg4mv640dpvvg978ixjtf/file/890120528845 ). A couple of interesting points:

 

1. Some existing PCR tests can distinguish omicron from delta. This is important because it makes spotting omicron easier. I say 'some' because (I believe) more than one PCR test is in use and what NERVTAG points out is that in South Africa their PCR tests were distinguishing omicron from delta.

 

2. NERVTAG gave an estimate of omicron's reproduction number, R of 1.9 in South Africa. I take this to mean that numbers of omicron infections were doubling roughly once a week in South Africa. South Africa has lower rates of vaccination than us so we may be better off ... possibly.

 

The NERVTAG meeting is actually from the 25th November so they may have better information by now.

Can't believe anyone still takes heed of anything SAGE says, they've been consistently wrong through this whole scenario.

[Carbuncle 0]

21 minutes ago, Chekhov said:

It's not a strawman, it's a  fact.

Perhaps you have a misunderstanding as to what a strawman is. If in response to your post, I write 'But Tinky Winky is purple' then I am arguing against a strawman because your post does not make a claim that Tinky Winky is some colour other than purple. I would be stating a fact because Tinky Winky is purple but it would not be a response to your argument.

 

Now let's have an example. Suppose I say (as I did) 'strawman' but your argument is against my having said 'that's not true' then that would be a strawman argument because you have addressed a different point from the one I made. Can you see where this is going? When you say "It's not a strawman, it's a fact," well that's actually a strawman argument. Congratulations, you win the internet.

 

[RJRB 682]

7 minutes ago, top4718 said:

Can't believe anyone still takes heed of anything SAGE says, they've been consistently wrong through this whole scenario.

So we should not take heed of the collective wisdom of numerous individuals at the top of their professions.

They have not been consistently wrong but in a pandemic that is still in its’ infancy they are also learning along the way.

No instant solutions but by far the greatest advance is the availability of effective vaccines which I am happy to say has been taken up by the majority of our population.

You always prefer to base your arguments on exceptions to any rule .

[top4718 838]

2 minutes ago, RJRB said:

So we should not take heed of the collective wisdom of numerous individuals at the top of their professions.

They have not been consistently wrong but in a pandemic that is still in its’ infancy they are also learning along the way.

No instant solutions but by far the greatest advance is the availability of effective vaccines which I am happy to say has been taken up by the majority of our population.

You always prefer to base your arguments on exceptions to any rule .

I've spotted a flaw in your statement. SAGE's modelling which has led to ridiculous lockdowns because of their predictions of doom and gloom is sheer incompetence at any level.

[RJRB 682]

@top4718Why highlight “effective vaccines” when it is these that have had a major part in government use of fewer lockdowns?

Edited December 6, 2021 by RJRB

[top4718 838]

9 minutes ago, RJRB said:

@top4718Why highlight “effective vaccines” when it is these that have had a major part in government use of fewer lockdowns?

An effective vaccine would have ended the thing months ago, remember the "15m vaccines to freedom" claim.

[Chekhov 488]

Since they have closed the general Covid thread I will have to ask this question on here :

 

My mother in law is in  care home.

She has now been triple vaccinated (plus I would bet money she had Covid in April 2020)

Any visitors she has have to test themselves thirty minutes before and register the result ion the govt website, then, when they get there everyone has to wear masks, gloves (I think)and aprons.

 

Bearing in mind, as I said, they have all been triple vaccinated (and most of the residents had Covid in April 2020) and therefore will never be more immune than they are now, why is this necessary ?

And, bearing in mind we will never get rid of Covid, how long will this madness go on for ? What will change ?

 

42 minutes ago, top4718 said:

An effective vaccine would have ended the thing months ago, remember the "15m vaccines to freedom" claim.

It should all have ended in about last April when they'd vaccinated 15,000,000 with at least two doses. And I really do mean All of it, no masks, no travel restrictions, nothing at all, back to the old normal.

But the problem is, as we get safer from Covid, all that happens is people's risk aversion (not mine I hasten to add)  just goes up another notch.

The fact is that if, back in March 2020, the death rate from Covid had been what it is now NONE OF THIS WOULD BE HAPPENING, that is an indisputable fact.

It is very very worrying.....

 

"End of April" (when 15 million had been double vaccinated and 34 million had had at least one dose.....)

Edited December 6, 2021 by Chekhov

[fools 447]

3 hours ago, Chekhov said:

 

If they are saying that hospitalisation figures and death rate figures are not comparable between different areas of the same country (to strongly indicate that masks and vaccine passports are of limited benefit, if any at all)

Adjacent postcodes will often have significantly different infection/death rates. Same NHS trust, same laws. Wales/Scotland are different countries, devolved administrations with different laws, different bureaucracies, different weather.

 

You can't just compare some figures, and come to a conclusion that masks have or have not made a difference. It could be down to fried mars bars or their musical tastes. Their figures could be worse without masks, you have no data to compare.

 

Comparing far away countries and coming to a conclusion about mask efficacy is just ludicrous.

 

In the absence of data either way, you have to use logic and precaution --- People spit when they talk/cough/sneeze, two surgical masks will help to contain and limit your exposure to that spittle. It's that simple.

 

 

Edited December 6, 2021 by fools

[top4718 838]

3 minutes ago, fools said:

Adjacent postcodes will often have significantly different infection/death rates. Same NHS trust, same laws. Wales/Scotland are different countries, devolved administrations with different laws, different bureaucracies, different weather.

 

You can't just compare some figures, and come to a conclusion that masks have or have not made a difference. It could be down to fried mars bars or their musical tastes. Their figures could be worse without masks, you have no data to compare.

 

Comparing far away countries and coming to a conclusion about mask efficacy is just ludicrous.

 

In the absence of data either way, you have to use logic and precaution --- People spit when they talk/cough/sneeze, two surgical masks will help to contain that spittle. It's that simple.

 

 

Most people don't wear one properly never mind two, why not put six on or ten, or walk about in a tent. Englands cases fell after the last mask mandate ended, that isn't comparing "far away countries" a virus is a virus it doesn't matter where it is.

[fools 447]

one on me, one on you, makes two

 

you are falling into the same trap, correlation is not causation.

 

do you wear a coat in the rain, or do you go everywhere topless

Edited December 6, 2021 by fools

[Chekhov 488]

12 minutes ago, fools said:

In the absence of data either way, you have to use logic and precaution --- People spit when they talk/cough/sneeze, two surgical masks will help to contain and limit your exposure to that spittle. It's that simple.

No.  You are saying if we don't know for sure (which they don't) "we should just be on the safe side".

Taking that attitude this will NEVER be over.

But what you have said reinforces what I have stated right from the very start, this is NOT about the science, it's about people's attitude to risk, personal freedom and death. Well people with an excessive risk aversion can change their own lives if they want, but they have no right to change mine, none at all.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Chekhov