Viners Cutlery

[crookesey 635]

2 minutes ago, MallyMon said:

That is a very ignorant, racist comment. 

I’m married to a half Jew, many of my mates are Jewish, perhaps you should read posts several times prior to making a fool of yourself.

 

 

 

[carosio 186]

My father, who started in the scissor trade in 1925, used to criticise Richards for the quality of their products.

 

I worked briefly for Surmanco, their scissor blanks were cold-pressed from coils of wire.

[Igor 12]

12 hours ago, Jonpl said:

That should not have been allowed! Maybe 'finished in Sheffield' or 'stamped in Sheffield' would have been more honest! Viners was a huge employer in Sheffield but sadly bit the dust in the early 80s.  Could it be something to do with a tarnished reputation?  The boss of Arthur Price at the time frowned on the practice, but I suspect that company today are importing stuff.  I have scissors marked 'Richardson Sheffield' but doubt they were made in the city!

Viners kept just on the right side of the legislation of the time by undertaking some finishing of the imported product which met the (some might say very weak) requirement for substantial change & hence could be marked with words including 'Sheffield'. 

[crookesey 635]

Very unlikely that their products will feature in future episodes of The Antiques Roadshow.

[Bargepole23 337]

On 18/11/2021 at 16:39, Organgrinder said:

They were the ones who hastened the end of the traditional cutlery trade and Viner should have been prosecuted for his actions at that time.

Who cares if a businessman can make a quick & easy few quid whilst ruining Sheffield's good name though not much changes.

I think Sheffield cutlery companies managed to hasten their own demise by lack of investment, lack of change in business practices and continuing to produce expensive cutlery and other products, straight razors for example, for a market that no longer existed. 

[Organgrinder 1,946]

1 hour ago, Bargepole23 said:

I think Sheffield cutlery companies managed to hasten their own demise by lack of investment, lack of change in business practices and continuing to produce expensive cutlery and other products, straight razors for example, for a market that no longer existed. 

I agree with you about the lack of investment. That is a general failing of much of industry in this country. and also in the things run by Government departments.

That's why we built a new aircraft carrier when we didn't have any aircraft to put on it.

 

The old business practises worked for more than a hundred years so I don't know what you are referring to here.

I worked for a quality Sheffield company who's owner was a master cutler in this city and the company who bought it, replaced all management with university graduates who sent it bust in no time.

Not a good advert for modern business practise to replace practical knowledge learned in the time honoured way.

 

Your reference to expensive cutlery shows the failings of running a society based simply on price and a race to the bottom regarding quality products.

Should we ban all top of range products then because some average guy in Sheffield can't afford them?

One company I worked for sold the majority of it's products to the expensive end of the American market but the USA also became captivated by the cheapo stuff coming from the far east.

You may not be aware, but these cheap prices are due to extensive use of, what can only be called, slave  or sweatshop labour.

I prefer the days when, if you could afford it, there were plenty of top quality goods on sale and this provided decent jobs for skilled craftsmen.

We are a country almost reliant on POUND SHOPS now.

Try and buy some really top quality cutlery nowadays, but don't rely on what the companies tell you.  I have tried, without success.

 

 

[Jim117 72]

I  worked for a cutlery firm in the 90’s and our stuff was junk. The head parts for the forks and spoons were imported from China or India whichever was cheapest at the time. Some of the forks were actually unusable as the tines were like a ten bob bit rather than curved. They were stamped 18/8 stainless. The knife blades however carried the Sheffield stamp, they were cheapo flat stampings from Wilds at Hillsborough. When boxed up of course a customer would assume they were buying Sheffield cutlery. Oh and yes Richards products were crap. My mum worked there and they didn’t produce anything half decent till they were merged with Rogers after a buy out by an American company IIRC.

[Organgrinder 1,946]

There was certainly plenty of rubbish  about, especially in the cutlery trades declining years.

There were always some manufacturers who would supply the cheap end of the market and produce mainly Whittle Tangs and, to be fair, the man in the street didn't really know the difference but,

if you wanted quality, it wasn't hard to find in Sheffield but, it's many years since I last saw respectable table cutlery, even ignoring prices.

I used to be surprised  how many firms kept going without problems when they were selling inferior quality products, especially since everyone knew the names of the cheap tack makers.

I honestly don't know who's serving the top end of the market these days but someone must be.

There was also a good trade in other things such as artist's palettes, kitchen palettes, and paint scrapers and various other kitchenalities but, presumably, the whole lot have gone. 

[Bargepole23 337]

3 hours ago, Organgrinder said:

I agree with you about the lack of investment. That is a general failing of much of industry in this country. and also in the things run by Government departments.

That's why we built a new aircraft carrier when we didn't have any aircraft to put on it.

 

The old business practises worked for more than a hundred years so I don't know what you are referring to here.

I worked for a quality Sheffield company who's owner was a master cutler in this city and the company who bought it, replaced all management with university graduates who sent it bust in no time.

Not a good advert for modern business practise to replace practical knowledge learned in the time honoured way.

 

Your reference to expensive cutlery shows the failings of running a society based simply on price and a race to the bottom regarding quality products.

Should we ban all top of range products then because some average guy in Sheffield can't afford them?

One company I worked for sold the majority of it's products to the expensive end of the American market but the USA also became captivated by the cheapo stuff coming from the far east.

You may not be aware, but these cheap prices are due to extensive use of, what can only be called, slave  or sweatshop labour.

I prefer the days when, if you could afford it, there were plenty of top quality goods on sale and this provided decent jobs for skilled craftsmen.

We are a country almost reliant on POUND SHOPS now.

Try and buy some really top quality cutlery nowadays, but don't rely on what the companies tell you.  I have tried, without success.

 

 

Those "old business practices" failed to invest in mechanisation in the inter-war years, and lost all commercial advantage to German, American and Japanese cutlery, scissor and safety razor manufacturers. That seems to have been the "time-honoured way", blinkers on, make products nobody wants, whilst our competitors make a fortune selling to the masses.

 

As for sweat shops, working practices, working conditions and efficiency were far higher in American and German manufacturers. What could be more of a sweat shop than some old Sheffield grinder or file cutter flogging himself into an early grave, filling his lungs with dust.

 

For the heavy trades, the same story. Lack of investment, lack of modern technological practices. I don't if you have ever worked or visited any UK steelworks, and any US or Far East steel works. I've spent a lot of time in all three envronments. One is dirty and unloved and tired, the other two are immaculate, full of automation. I'm sure you can work out which is which.

 

Have a read of "Steel City" by Geoffrey Tweedale if you want some facts.

 

[Jim117 72]

I worked at a couple of firms and they were pretty archaic machinery wise to be fair. One still used fly presses and the other had shaping machines dating from the end of WW2. Both had the same type of polisher which I used occasionally. I was recently given a couple of these polishers to dismantle and out of curiosity I looked up the motor serial numbers and found that this model was discontinued in 1955. I know that well made and simple machines last a long time but there must be a cut off point where new tech is required to advance efficiency. I saw little evidence of this during my time in these places.

[Organgrinder 1,946]

On 08/12/2021 at 13:59, Bargepole23 said:

Those "old business practices" failed to invest in mechanisation in the inter-war years, and lost all commercial advantage to German, American and Japanese cutlery, scissor and safety razor manufacturers. That seems to have been the "time-honoured way", blinkers on, make products nobody wants, whilst our competitors make a fortune selling to the masses.

 

As for sweat shops, working practices, working conditions and efficiency were far higher in American and German manufacturers. What could be more of a sweat shop than some old Sheffield grinder or file cutter flogging himself into an early grave, filling his lungs with dust.

 

For the heavy trades, the same story. Lack of investment, lack of modern technological practices. I don't if you have ever worked or visited any UK steelworks, and any US or Far East steel works. I've spent a lot of time in all three envronments. One is dirty and unloved and tired, the other two are immaculate, full of automation. I'm sure you can work out which is which.

 

Have a read of "Steel City" by Geoffrey Tweedale if you want some facts.

 

I have already agreed that this country failed to invest but I fail to understand the relevance of much of what you say to the subject we set out to discuss - namely
Viners selling far east cutlery and giving the impression that it was a British product & made in Sheffield.

Why do you refer to losing all commercial advantage to German, American and Japanese cutlery, scissor and safety razor manufacturers.
I know of no German, American or Japanese cutlery companies who, with all these advantages, are making anything other than cheap everyday cutlery. 
You might explain why these three nations have immaculate, full of automation, workplaces and yet, When we look to buy a top quality canteen of cutlery, THEY DONT MAKE ANY EITHER.
If they do, they certainly don't sell them in UK shops so what has all that investment gained them.
They have NOT out performed us at making top quality cutlery, they have just destroyed our industry by flooding our markets with cheap tack, purporting to come from this country.

I have lived and worked in the City of steel for many many years and don't need to read a book to learn about the industry in which I practised my craft.

Real life is a much better teacher than a book and -
I repeat my claim that, you cannot buy cutlery of the quality that Sheffield used to produce and the foreign countries you praise don't produce it either.

[Bargepole23 337]

13 hours ago, Organgrinder said:

I have already agreed that this country failed to invest but I fail to understand the relevance of much of what you say to the subject we set out to discuss - namely
Viners selling far east cutlery and giving the impression that it was a British product & made in Sheffield.

Why do you refer to losing all commercial advantage to German, American and Japanese cutlery, scissor and safety razor manufacturers.
I know of no German, American or Japanese cutlery companies who, with all these advantages, are making anything other than cheap everyday cutlery. 
You might explain why these three nations have immaculate, full of automation, workplaces and yet, When we look to buy a top quality canteen of cutlery, THEY DONT MAKE ANY EITHER.
If they do, they certainly don't sell them in UK shops so what has all that investment gained them.
They have NOT out performed us at making top quality cutlery, they have just destroyed our industry by flooding our markets with cheap tack, purporting to come from this country.

I have lived and worked in the City of steel for many many years and don't need to read a book to learn about the industry in which I practised my craft.

Real life is a much better teacher than a book and -
I repeat my claim that, you cannot buy cutlery of the quality that Sheffield used to produce and the foreign countries you praise don't produce it either.

Nobody wants to buy a canteen of cutlery any more, not even for a wedding present. Nobody has for a long time. You can outperform all you like but no sales equals no business. It's a shame those much vaunted cutlery manufacturers management didn't realise that and diversify, or develop other lines, or train fresh blood, or invest, instead of throwing all those workers and skills on the scrap heap.

 

At what level were you working in the cutlery trade? Which firm was it that was sent bust by university graduates?