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Clapped Out: Is The Nhs Broken?

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40 minutes ago, melthebell said:

Or....have the Tories deliberately broken it so they can sell bits off?

Yes.

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1 hour ago, the_bloke said:

However, the NHS, like other public services, seems to be unable to grasp the concept of continuous improvement because there isn't a reason to do so. If a business got an ever increasing amount of money to operate each year without actually doing anything different to justify the increase - it hasn't operated any differently to the year before, no increase in performance, productivity, the processes are the same, the mistakes are the same - then why is it ever going to change?

Putting recent declines to one side due to COVID, people are living longer, despite people getting more obese.

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36 minutes ago, top4718 said:

This rumour has been doing the rounds for 30 years it still hasn't happened, I think Labours PFI contracts privatised more than the Tories have.

I've already mentioned the German system as being an example of what we should be aiming for.

Oh but it has. 

You'd be amazed how much of the NHS is in the hands of private companies. Just because it's got an NHS logo on it doesn't mean it's run by the NHS.  Half the ambulances for example are  now hired in from private companies. Many Doctor's surgeries are private businesses., (and as mentioned in another thread, are being bought up by American companies. Agency doctors and nurses who keep the NHS by filling the gaps  work for the agency (who charge the NHS a great deal,) not the NHS. Much Mental health is also  in the hands of private companies like Cygnet. And don't get me started on care homes (all private) and much Social care is no longer part of the NHS. They exploit both the clients and the carers. If you're too much trouble and they can't turn a profit on you, you won't get the help you need. Not exactly a shining example of privatisation.  

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As long as the the treatment for the end patients remains free or heavily subsidised source, most people don't really care whether the back-end machine is wholly operated by the NHS or subcontract to a private company.

 

Government controlled operations run by bullying unions, dinosaur civil servants and stubborn institutionalised staff are hardly exactly a shining example either.

 

Still doesn't detract from the fact that despite the continual wailing and hysteria from left-wing mouthpieces and certain aspects of the press,  this whole notion of "our NHS" disappearing has been thrown about for the last 40 years totally unfounded. It's even worse come election time when the hysteria level goes off the chart.

 

People wonder why the public don't become engaged.  Absolute boy who cried wolf syndrome, the NHS has always been in Crisis, the NHS is always on underfunded, the NHS is always understaffed, the NHS is always short of resources, the NHS is always on the brink of collapse, the NHS is always involved in some scandal, the NHS it's always involved in some negligence, the NHS is always involved in a data leak, the NHS is always under threat........allegedly.

 

Just Google how far back the same dramatic repeated headlines have been and keep coming up month after month year after year. 

 

blah blah.  heard it all before.

 

I certainly don't know the German system to give feasible comparators but what about something on the other side of the pond. Canada has free healthcare and yet  in the minimal amount of international press I read doesn't seem to have half of the crisis or drama that are Healthcare system has.  What lessons can we be learning from that side. How does a cost compare, how does funding compare.  

 

Maybe it's time we really need to look outside of constantly what Europe is doing.

Edited by ECCOnoob

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7 hours ago, ECCOnoob said:

As long as the the treatment for the end patients remains free or heavily subsidised source, most people don't really care whether the back-end machine is wholly operated by the NHS or subcontract to a private company.

 

Government controlled operations run by bullying unions, dinosaur civil servants and stubborn institutionalised staff are hardly exactly a shining example either.

 

Still doesn't detract from the fact that despite the continual wailing and hysteria from left-wing mouthpieces and certain aspects of the press,  this whole notion of "our NHS" disappearing has been thrown about for the last 40 years totally unfounded. It's even worse come election time when the hysteria level goes off the chart.

 

People wonder why the public don't become engaged.  Absolute boy who cried wolf syndrome, the NHS has always been in Crisis, the NHS is always on underfunded, the NHS is always understaffed, the NHS is always short of resources, the NHS is always on the brink of collapse, the NHS is always involved in some scandal, the NHS it's always involved in some negligence, the NHS is always involved in a data leak, the NHS is always under threat........allegedly.

 

Just Google how far back the same dramatic repeated headlines have been and keep coming up month after month year after year. 

 

blah blah.  heard it all before.

 

I certainly don't know the German system to give feasible comparators but what about something on the other side of the pond. Canada has free healthcare and yet  in the minimal amount of international press I read doesn't seem to have half of the crisis or drama that are Healthcare system has.  What lessons can we be learning from that side. How does a cost compare, how does funding compare.  

 

Maybe it's time we really need to look outside of constantly what Europe is doing.

Not all Canadian healthcare is free.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Canada

 

"Canadian Medicare provides coverage for approximately 70 percent of Canadians' healthcare needs, and the remaining 30 percent is paid for through the private sector.[7][8] The 30 percent typically relates to services not covered or only partially covered by Medicare, such as prescription drugs, eye care, and dentistry"

 

It ranks just below the UK in provision of hospital beds per 100,000 people  - 36th in the world as oppossed to 35th - pretty poor for advanced economies.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_hospital_beds 

 

Spends more per capita than the UK and similar to France and Belgium.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_per_capita

 

As for lack of healthcare crisis - just a few stories from a quick google - sounds sort of familiar.

 

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/article/governments-face-looming-cash-crisis-health-care-spending

 

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/frontburner/stories-from-inside-canada-s-hospital-crisis-1.6192761

 

https://www.macdonaldlaurier.ca/medicares-midlife-crisis-fixing-canadian-health-care-for-the-21st-century/

 

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/john-robson-the-health-care-crisis-in-canada-is-that-nothing-ever-changes

 

 

So why not look at what European countries, especially Germany and France, are doing?

 

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Just now, Longcol said:

Not all Canadian healthcare is free.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Canada

 

"Canadian Medicare provides coverage for approximately 70 percent of Canadians' healthcare needs, and the remaining 30 percent is paid for through the private sector.[7][8] The 30 percent typically relates to services not covered or only partially covered by Medicare, such as prescription drugs, eye care, and dentistry"

 

It ranks just below the UK in provision of hospital beds per 100,000 people  - 36th in the world as oppossed to 35th - pretty poor for advanced economies.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_hospital_beds 

 

Spends more per capita than the UK and similar to France and Belgium.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_per_capita

 

As for lack of healthcare crisis - just a few stories from a quick google - sounds sort of familiar.

 

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/article/governments-face-looming-cash-crisis-health-care-spending

 

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/frontburner/stories-from-inside-canada-s-hospital-crisis-1.6192761

 

https://www.macdonaldlaurier.ca/medicares-midlife-crisis-fixing-canadian-health-care-for-the-21st-century/

 

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/john-robson-the-health-care-crisis-in-canada-is-that-nothing-ever-changes

 

 

So why not look at what European countries, especially Germany and France, are doing?

 

That 30% doesn't sound too far from our own health system. Unless you have strict exemptions most of us pay for our own prescriptions, dentistry and optical.

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2 minutes ago, ECCOnoob said:

That 30% doesn't sound too far from our own health system. Unless you have strict exemptions most of us pay for our own prescriptions, dentistry and optical.

Prescriptions and dentistry are subsidised.

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4 minutes ago, ECCOnoob said:

That 30% doesn't sound too far from our own health system. Unless you have strict exemptions most of us pay for our own prescriptions, dentistry and optical.

True - but you stated healthcare was free in Canada.

 

Any reason why we shouldn't consider European alternatives?

Edited by Longcol

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1 minute ago, Longcol said:

True - but you stated it was free in Canada.

 

Any reason why we shouldn't consider European alternatives?

Ok Mr pedantic I'm talking free as the same as ours is supposably "free".

 

I was trying to find comparisons away from Europe to something that closer aligns our own model given that apparently France and Germany are so much different and so much better.  I was trying to find some independent source similar to our own model to see whether they have the same levels of hysterical and over dramatised  press, constant crisises, government criticism and deluded fan worship who think the service can do your wrong.  

 

Nice to see things from a different angle sometimes.  

 

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2 minutes ago, ECCOnoob said:

Ok Mr pedantic I'm talking free as the same as ours is supposably "free".

 

I was trying to find comparisons away from Europe to something that closer aligns our own model given that apparently France and Germany are so much different and so much better.  I was trying to find some independent source similar to our own model to see whether they have the same levels of hysterical and over dramatised  press, constant crisises, government criticism and deluded fan worship who think the service can do your wrong.  

 

Nice to see things from a different angle sometimes.  

 

Your lack of sources in #40 is noted. 

 

Any problems with the ones I supplied?

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8 hours ago, ECCOnoob said:

Canada has free healthcare and yet  in the minimal amount of international press I read doesn't seem to have half of the crisis or drama that are Healthcare system has. 

Probably because they're not governed by the Evil Tories.  Do you think that might have something to do with it?

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1 hour ago, The Joker said:

Probably because they're not governed by the Evil Tories.  Do you think that might have something to do with it?

No I don't think that simplistically.

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