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Bus Timetable Changes 31 October 2021

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Guest busdriver1
4 hours ago, Andy C said:

Already done!

 

Stocksbridge and Deepcar have a link bus that feeds into the tram at Middlewood.

 

Bradfield has a rural bus that operates a loop connecting with other buses/trams at Hillsborough.

 

This was also tried at Stannington (feeding in to the tram at Malin Bridge) and Killamarsh (feeding in to the tram at Crystal Peaks) but those services weren't very well used and were withdrawn - people seemed to prefer the convenience of a direct service into the City Centre even if it was less frequent.

All those services were NOT as a result of copying foreign practices but instead came from an idea from a driver at Ecclesfield depot of Stagecoach. I know that driver and was made aware long before the services started.

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A quick reminder that the timetable change is this weekend... download new ones here >> https://travelsouthyorkshire.com/en-gb/newsupdates/service-changes#sheffield

 

Individual operator/ticketing websites:

 

Stagecoach: https://www.stagecoachbus.com/

First bus: https://www.firstbus.co.uk/sheffield

Hulleys of Baslow: https://www.hulleys-of-baslow.co.uk/

TM Travel: http://www.tmtravel.co.uk/

Powells: http://www.hctgroup.org/powells_bus

Travelmaster tickets (valid on all operators) https://www.sytravelmaster.com/

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20 hours ago, Andy C said:

Already done!

 

Stocksbridge and Deepcar have a link bus that feeds into the tram at Middlewood.

 

 

In theory but unfortunately the buses and trams are different companies(yes both part of Stagecoach) and the trams will refuse to wait for the arriving bus even when they can see it and because they refuse to communicate with the bus people then the bus will often leave before the tram arrives ( not funny on a cold winters night).

 

In an ideal world the different parts will communicate and co operate to provide a quality overall service and given Stagecoach can not even manage it between their own companies then little hope for them co operating with First or whoever

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Interesting and well done that employee.  Why continue to run the 57 then?

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2 hours ago, BigAl1 said:

In theory but unfortunately the buses and trams are different companies(yes both part of Stagecoach) and the trams will refuse to wait for the arriving bus even when they can see it and because they refuse to communicate with the bus people then the bus will often leave before the tram arrives ( not funny on a cold winters night).

 

In an ideal world the different parts will communicate and co operate to provide a quality overall service and given Stagecoach can not even manage it between their own companies then little hope for them co operating with First or whoever

As has been said before the Yellow tram has to run to timetable to avoid the railway governed paths of the Tram Train.

 

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3 hours ago, lawro said:

Interesting and well done that employee.  Why continue to run the 57 then?

57 only runs once an hour and serves different areas

5 hours ago, BigAl1 said:

In theory but unfortunately the buses and trams are different companies(yes both part of Stagecoach) and the trams will refuse to wait for the arriving bus even when they can see it and because they refuse to communicate with the bus people then the bus will often leave before the tram arrives ( not funny on a cold winters night).

 

In an ideal world the different parts will communicate and co operate to provide a quality overall service and given Stagecoach can not even manage it between their own companies then little hope for them co operating with First or whoever

The tram and bus will sometimes wait for one another at the times of low frequency (such as at night) if one is running late but not at times when tram services are every 10-15 minutes.

 

Don't forget a tram setting off from Middlewood late will most likely arrive Meadowhall Interchange late meaning passengers may miss connecting buses, trains or coaches there - much worse for those passengers than someone from Stocksbridge having to wait a few minutes until the next tram arrives at Middlewood.

Edited by Andy C

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21 hours ago, Annie Bynnol said:

As has been said before the Yellow tram has to run to timetable to avoid the railway governed paths of the Tram Train.

 

As said before you are wrong with proper planing there would be no issue. Professionals could easily manage this we are not talking about holding the tram for long periods to wait for the bus and the tram train has absolutely no impact on the trams communicating with the buses in the other direction. This lack of connection has been a constant problem long before the tram train you are as usual just grasping at straws to try and defend the indefensible

18 hours ago, Andy C said:

Don't forget a tram setting off from Middlewood late will most likely arrive Meadowhall Interchange late meaning passengers may miss connecting buses, trains or coaches there - much worse for those passengers than someone from Stocksbridge having to wait a few minutes until the next tram arrives at Middlewood.

the frequency of the trams was reduced to allow better punctuality. This means that they have about 6 minutes turnaround at Meadowhall and I have only ever advocated holding the tram where the bus is just arriving at Middlewood so 2  minutes at worst and plenty of wiggleroom not to get in the way of the Blue tram (at least when it was also on the same frequency)

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13 minutes ago, BigAl1 said:

As said before you are wrong with proper planing there would be no issue. Professionals could easily manage this we are not talking about holding the tram for long periods to wait for the bus and the tram train has absolutely no impact on the trams communicating with the buses in the other direction. This lack of connection has been a constant problem long before the tram train you are as usual just grasping at straws to try and defend the indefensible

the frequency of the trams was reduced to allow better punctuality. This means that they have about 6 minutes turnaround at Meadowhall and I have only ever advocated holding the tram where the bus is just arriving at Middlewood so 2  minutes at worst and plenty of wiggleroom not to get in the way of the Blue tram (at least when it was also on the same frequency)

The Professionals operating the railway from York will only allow a TramTrain onto the rail system at pre-determined times so that the TramTrain does not interfere with local and national passenger and freight services crossing its path at between Park Gate junction and Tinsley East Junction.

The working timetables they use are down to 15 second timings.

Being early or late causes a knock on effect that multiplies across the region and if the signalers at York have don't get back control, chaos ensues. One of the many ways of doing this is by cancelling trains(and TramTrains).

 

The safety, control and signalling of TramTrains on the railway has been a very big and expensive problem.

This has required that the TramTrain headway to be greater than a train and the "wiggleroom" increased across the tram system. The "wiggleroom" is fixed-you cannot keep adding to it - the tram has to leave. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

23 hours ago, lawro said:

Interesting and well done that employee.  Why continue to run the 57 then?

Because it serves other places.

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6 hours ago, Annie Bynnol said:

The Professionals operating the railway from York will only allow a TramTrain onto the rail system at pre-determined times so that the TramTrain does not interfere with local and national passenger and freight services crossing its path at between Park Gate junction and Tinsley East Junction.

The working timetables they use are down to 15 second timings.

Being early or late causes a knock on effect that multiplies across the region and if the signalers at York have don't get back control, chaos ensues. One of the many ways of doing this is by cancelling trains(and TramTrains).

 

The safety, control and signalling of TramTrains on the railway has been a very big and expensive problem.

This has required that the TramTrain headway to be greater than a train and the "wiggleroom" increased across the tram system. The "wiggleroom" is fixed-you cannot keep adding to it - the tram has to leave. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Because it serves other places.

As I have said before I fully understand the issues surrounding the tram train access to the network rail patch. You design the timetable around that of the tram train not the other way round

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2 hours ago, BigAl1 said:

As I have said before I fully understand the issues surrounding the tram train access to the network rail patch. You design the timetable around that of the tram train not the other way round

Which is exactly what they do.

The TramTrain paths are fixed which means the timetable of the Yellow tram route is fixed so that is not in the way of a TramTrain.

The "wiggleroom" in the Yellow tram timetable will be sufficient for most situations when things start running late but it cannot be extended.

There  will be times when the SL1 arrives early at Middlewood will 'see' a late departing tram - much to the annoyance of the bus passenger who won't realise it was not their connecting tram. If held, the departing tram would then delay the next incoming Yellow tram and so it snowballs chaotically across the tram and rail systems. Trains and trams cannot pull over or make up time  by not stopping(trains do in the South East).

The Blue and Purple trams must also be controlled carefully to allow the crossovers at Cathedral and will often 'give way' to the TT and Yellow trams.

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Oh really please

13 hours ago, Annie Bynnol said:

Which is exactly what they do.

The TramTrain paths are fixed which means the timetable of the Yellow tram route is fixed so that is not in the way of a TramTrain.

The "wiggleroom" in the Yellow tram timetable will be sufficient for most situations when things start running late but it cannot be extended.

There  will be times when the SL1 arrives early at Middlewood will 'see' a late departing tram - much to the annoyance of the bus passenger who won't realise it was not their connecting tram. If held, the departing tram would then delay the next incoming Yellow tram and so it snowballs chaotically across the tram and rail systems. Trains and trams cannot pull over or make up time  by not stopping(trains do in the South East).

The Blue and Purple trams must also be controlled carefully to allow the crossovers at Cathedral and will often 'give way' to the TT and Yellow trams.

oh please

 

Why send the yellow trams just in front or just behind the Tram Train when there would be far less risk of delay if they were separated by a gap of 4-6 minutes this stupidity was highlighted during the period when the yellow frequency was reduced to the 15 minutes

 

YES occasionally the bus at Middlewood may be arriving early BUT far more common is that it is a little behind schedule.  At the moment frequently the yellow trams are arriving at Middlewood early and when they do they wait on the bit of track where they are not blocking other trams or trafic so your argument holds no water. I have never advocated holding the tram indefinitely and there is 2 minutes leaway between the departing tram and the arrival of the next one (theoretically). Stagecoach have already demonstrated that there is no reason not to hold the incoming tram there and indeed often because there is no co ordination with the lights to the car park will wait even after the outgoing tram has gone for a minute or more

 

clearly you are stuck in your ivory tower just making excuses with out knowing what is happening on the ground and no concept of customer service

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The TramTrain (TT)timetable is primary

The TT occupies both platforms at the Cathedral during arrival at the Cathedral.

The Yellow(Y)tram* for Meadowhall departs Cathedral just after the TT.

-allows for a 10m frequency in normal timetable

-heavier loading of Y leads to longer dwell times at stops means TT will catch up.

The Purple(P) tram occupies both platforms at the Cathedral during arrival at the Cathedral.

The Blue(B) tram needs to fit in between. 

 

The Cathedral platform* for Meadowhall/Herdings/Parkgate/Halfway is therefore occupied at

00, 04, 09, 14-15, 16, 24, 25-27, 39, 40, 44-45, 55, 57-00 minutes past the hour. 

 

B and P trams have some  more flexibility because of the nature of their route.

B and Y tram coming from Park Square can interfere with the TT and P cross overs at the Cathedral

TT can be affected by late running passenger trains between Tinsley an Parkgate.

And every other incident regular and irregular.

 

Mathematicians would refer to this as Chaotic System where uncontrolled variables can bring the whole system crashing down.

In this case the SL1 tail cannot be allowed to wag the dog.

The solution is for Stagecoach to increase the frequency of the SL1 so the gaps are filled  and so like me walking to the bus stop, I know there will be another one in less than 10 minutes.

 

*may need updating. Post covid a 20 min TT and 10m B service will increase platform occupancy and fragility of the timetable.

 

PS  What does "clearly you are stuck in your ivory tower just making excuses with out knowing what is happening on the ground and no concept of customer service" mean?

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