Bus Timetable Changes 31 October 2021

[BigAl1 143]

2 hours ago, Annie Bynnol said:

The TramTrain (TT)timetable is primary

The TT occupies both platforms at the Cathedral during arrival at the Cathedral.

The Yellow(Y)tram* for Meadowhall departs Cathedral just after the TT.

-allows for a 10m frequency in normal timetable

-heavier loading of Y leads to longer dwell times at stops means TT will catch up.

The Purple(P) tram occupies both platforms at the Cathedral during arrival at the Cathedral.

The Blue(B) tram needs to fit in between. 

 

The Cathedral platform* for Meadowhall/Herdings/Parkgate/Halfway is therefore occupied at

00, 04, 09, 14-15, 16, 24, 25-27, 39, 40, 44-45, 55, 57-00 minutes past the hour. 

 

B and P trams have some  more flexibility because of the nature of their route.

B and Y tram coming from Park Square can interfere with the TT and P cross overs at the Cathedral

TT can be affected by late running passenger trains between Tinsley an Parkgate.

And every other incident regular and irregular.

 

Mathematicians would refer to this as Chaotic System where uncontrolled variables can bring the whole system crashing down.

In this case the SL1 tail cannot be allowed to wag the dog.

The solution is for Stagecoach to increase the frequency of the SL1 so the gaps are filled  and so like me walking to the bus stop, I know there will be another one in less than 10 minutes.

 

*may need updating. Post covid a 20 min TT and 10m B service will increase platform occupancy and fragility of the timetable.

 

PS  What does "clearly you are stuck in your ivory tower just making excuses with out knowing what is happening on the ground and no concept of customer service" mean?

If the yellow tram is meant to follow immediately the tram train from Cathedral then how will the yellow tram being a minute or two late affect the tram train which is in front of it and the next one no where to be seen.

 

the tram train only occupies one platform at Cathedral unless it has to wait for the Meadowhall side to clear just as the purple tram. Both have to wait sometimes but not for any significant period of time usually.

 

if the yellow tram leaves after the tram train and has longer dwell times just how will the train tram catch it

 

the yellow tram is timetabled to take 12 minutes to arena/ legacy park the train tram 13 minutes from Cathedral so no idea what you are talking about in terms of longer dwell times because if that were the case you would expect the yellow tram to be timetabled to take longer(even under the management of Stagecoach)

[alexander874 17]

From day one of Supertram I've felt that Cathedral should have been a three track layout, there's no where away from outer  termini to stack a tram.

[Annie Bynnol 612]

1 hour ago, BigAl1 said:

If the yellow tram is meant to follow immediately the tram train from Cathedral then how will the yellow tram being a minute or two late affect the tram train which is in front of it and the next one no where to be seen.

 

the tram train only occupies one platform at Cathedral unless it has to wait for the Meadowhall side to clear just as the purple tram. Both have to wait sometimes but not for any significant period of time usually.

 

if the yellow tram leaves after the tram train and has longer dwell times just how will the train tram catch it

 

the yellow tram is timetabled to take 12 minutes to arena/ legacy park the train tram 13 minutes from Cathedral so no idea what you are talking about in terms of longer dwell times because if that were the case you would expect the yellow tram to be timetabled to take longer(even under the management of Stagecoach)

The arrival and crossover of TT and P blocks all other through trams(B and Y in both direction) and the cycle of setting the turnout, waiting for signal,  moving into the platform,  re-setting the turn out and signals(frees the other platform) and changing ends all takes time. 

 

A Y tram departing a "..minute or two late..." is eating into its "wiggle room" already and the driver cannot predict how much time he can recover or loose even more before reaching the Cathedral. The driver cannot say "I will make the time up"

When a TT leaves for Meadowhall a Y tram follows shortly after if it is on time then a B and maybe a P. This Y tram has no effect on this TT even if it is late.  If it is late it will cause all subsequent operations to be be late-normally the "wiggleroom" is sufficient- if a subsequent operation or tram are late and the "wiggleroom" is consumed then it become very difficult to regain control over the timetable.

 

The railway operates to a 15s 'working timetable' and "wiggleroom". No doubt the trams have their own 'working timetable' and "wiggleroom", perhaps not 15s but cetainly not a lot more.

You cannot run three separately controlled systems like bus, tram and railway without problems-for a comparison look at what is causing the massive problems at Crossrail and how it is being cut up into three sections with no connectivity. 

I know that salaries of over £175 000  and wequally big bonuses are being offered to solve the problem - fancy it?

 

 

 

[BigAl1 143]

59 minutes ago, Annie Bynnol said:

The arrival and crossover of TT and P blocks all other through trams(B and Y in both direction) and the cycle of setting the turnout, waiting for signal,  moving into the platform,  re-setting the turn out and signals(frees the other platform) and changing ends all takes time. 

 

A Y tram departing a "..minute or two late..." is eating into its "wiggle room" already and the driver cannot predict how much time he can recover or loose even more before reaching the Cathedral. The driver cannot say "I will make the time up"

When a TT leaves for Meadowhall a Y tram follows shortly after if it is on time then a B and maybe a P. This Y tram has no effect on this TT even if it is late.  If it is late it will cause all subsequent operations to be be late-normally the "wiggleroom" is sufficient- if a subsequent operation or tram are late and the "wiggleroom" is consumed then it become very difficult to regain control over the timetable.

 

The railway operates to a 15s 'working timetable' and "wiggleroom". No doubt the trams have their own 'working timetable' and "wiggleroom", perhaps not 15s but cetainly not a lot more.

You cannot run three separately controlled systems like bus, tram and railway without problems-for a comparison look at what is causing the massive problems at Crossrail and how it is being cut up into three sections with no connectivity. 

I know that salaries of over £175 000  and wequally big bonuses are being offered to solve the problem - fancy it?

 

 

 

Not for the first time you you have completely failed to even address the points I made and as usual gone off on another track (sorry) and raise irrelevant issues. 

 

Crossrail is not even up and running and anyone with rail expertise would be fully aware that there is no comparison between the complexities of running that service and our tram system. I thought Thameslink was a big challenge meshing in the services north and south of the river back in the 80s but Crossrail trying to run from the SE and the north east of London and then on the GreatWesten is an unenviable task. Our trams though are child’s play by comparison.

 

with long layovers at Malin  Bridge, Middlewood and Halfway then a minute here or there doesn’t have a knock on effect on the return. Indeed this was the whole rationale we were told for reducing the frequency from the 10 minutes just so that small delays did not grow and disrupt the services.

[Annie Bynnol 612]

59 minutes ago, BigAl1 said:

Not for the first time you you have completely failed to even address the points I made and as usual gone off on another track (sorry) and raise irrelevant issues. 

 

Crossrail is not even up and running and anyone with rail expertise would be fully aware that there is no comparison between the complexities of running that service and our tram system. I thought Thameslink was a big challenge meshing in the services north and south of the river back in the 80s but Crossrail trying to run from the SE and the north east of London and then on the GreatWesten is an unenviable task. Our trams though are child’s play by comparison.

 

with long layovers at Malin  Bridge, Middlewood and Halfway then a minute here or there doesn’t have a knock on effect on the return. Indeed this was the whole rationale we were told for reducing the frequency from the 10 minutes just so that small delays did not grow and disrupt the services.

The Crossrail example is straight forward.

Problem: they cannot reliably integrate three sections of track to provide end to end services.

Solution: break it up into three bits-Reading to Paddington, Paddington to Abbey Wood and Liverpool Street to Shenfield.

Technically and very simply there are three sections(not routes) operate in three different ways. Each train needs to be able to move through each section safely and quickly so that a 5 minutes frequency is maintained in the new central tunnels. 

The engineers cannot provide this level of robustness, result- Mathematical Chaos -with the passengers seeing a drop in frequency, longer journey times, cancellation -over crowding and a huge impact on other services. 

 

Separating the services ensures that the timetable can be maintained. Many passengers will have to change Crossrail trains to complete their Crossrail  journey.

 

So a traveller on a Crossrail from Reading might arrive in Paddington just in time to see a bloody minded computer sending off a Crossrail train going to Abbey Wood. "Couldn't you wait 1-2 minutes?" said the passenger, "011010101001000100110" said the computer -smiling,  knowing that hundreds of thousands of passengers will not have their journeys disrupted later in the day. 

 

It is exactly the same  principle in Sheffield you cannot integrate three systems on an infrastructure designed to cope with two. If only they had listened to this:

5 hours ago, alexander874 said:

From day one of Supertram I've felt that Cathedral should have been a three track layout, there's no where away from outer  termini to stack a tram.

Was it becuse of the skeletons they found?

[dutch 68]

18 hours ago, alexander874 said:

From day one of Supertram I've felt that Cathedral should have been a three track layout, there's no where away from outer  termini to stack a tram.

I played with electric train toy sets as a child and would have used a three track system in a layout point as cathedral.

Two months ago a switch broke there and it messed up everything for more than four hours. The driver was trying to force it with a big steel bar but it would not move.

These switches are used continuously and when you use them this frequently they have to be of super quality for them to keep working. A three track layout at cathedral would have been cheaper cause there be less maintenance repairs on expensive switching gear.

Edited October 31, 2021 by dutch

[NERVY-OWL 195]

16 hours ago, Annie Bynnol said:

The Crossrail example is straight forward.

Problem: they cannot reliably integrate three sections of track to provide end to end services.

Solution: break it up into three bits-Reading to Paddington, Paddington to Abbey Wood and Liverpool Street to Shenfield.

Technically and very simply there are three sections(not routes) operate in three different ways. Each train needs to be able to move through each section safely and quickly so that a 5 minutes frequency is maintained in the new central tunnels. 

The engineers cannot provide this level of robustness, result- Mathematical Chaos -with the passengers seeing a drop in frequency, longer journey times, cancellation -over crowding and a huge impact on other services. 

 

Separating the services ensures that the timetable can be maintained. Many passengers will have to change Crossrail trains to complete their Crossrail  journey.

 

So a traveller on a Crossrail from Reading might arrive in Paddington just in time to see a bloody minded computer sending off a Crossrail train going to Abbey Wood. "Couldn't you wait 1-2 minutes?" said the passenger, "011010101001000100110" said the computer -smiling,  knowing that hundreds of thousands of passengers will not have their journeys disrupted later in the day. 

 

It is exactly the same  principle in Sheffield you cannot integrate three systems on an infrastructure designed to cope with two. If only they had listened to this:

Was it becuse of the skeletons they found?

They still built where they found the skeletons though didn't they? They just moved the skeletons to a different location I thought. I'd of thought if they did think of it it was more down to space. Without flattening some buildings I'm not sure if there would of been space for another rail. I've not been into town for a while though so I could be remembering the area size wrong.

 

As for trams not waiting for buses, I've lost count of the amount of passengers that have complained about the tram not waiting for them when I've drove the SL when it was the tram for the bus just leaving the park and ride and I was just slightly early getting there. I've kept off the thread as it didn't take long for the bus driver/tram bashing to start.

[HeHasRisen 3,403]

On 19/10/2021 at 13:28, Andy C said:

They simply don't have enough drivers to deliver the service all the way to the airport at present.

Ahem!

 

 

[BigAl1 143]

On 28/10/2021 at 13:13, Annie Bynnol said:

As has been said before the Yellow tram has to run to timetable to avoid the railway governed paths of the Tram Train.

 

So with the new "emergency" timetables the Yellow trams have been given reduced turnaround at Middlewood resulting in frequent late departures of one or two minutes exactly the sort of thing you were saying would bring chaos to the tram train and access to the network rail part of the journey

[BigAl1 143]

Indeed so worried are they about punctuality now that the tram link buses are on strike and no passengers to leave stranded that today at 12.00 at middlewood the incoming tram arrived a bit behind schedule but rather than leave promptly at 12.01 the conductor decided to have a fag break for 3 minutes 

[hackey lad 3,976]

Top tips for anyone using the Tram . Ignore the timetable , ignore the dot matrix times ,  wrap up well go to the stop and hope you are lucky . Please dont mention covid its been like this for a few years now .

[dutch 68]

4 hours ago, hackey lad said:

Top tips for anyone using the Tram . Ignore the timetable , ignore the dot matrix times ,  wrap up well go to the stop and hope you are lucky . Please dont mention covid its been like this for a few years now .

And check supertram on Twitter for any recent issues.