National Hate Crime Week. Should Shouting At Or Close Passing Cyclists Be A Hate

[Caswall 7]

18 hours ago, Findlay said:

Can you explain your evidence for this please?

The 'explanation' is being regularly stuck behind the selfish swines, watching them block the roads in wonderment at their lack of consideration in pulling over.

 

[trastrick 866]

Hating someone who is a Conservative or a Republican in a two party democracy, can be more dangerous to society at large, than hollering abuse at a cyclist who refuses to obey the traffic laws.

 

Your thoughts? 

[Carbuncle 0]

1 hour ago, trastrick said:

Hating someone who is a Conservative or a Republican in a two party democracy, can be more dangerous to society at large, than hollering abuse at a cyclist who refuses to obey the traffic laws.

 

Your thoughts? 

You're probably in need of a KitKat.

[trastrick 866]

1 hour ago, Carbuncle said:

You're probably in need of a KitKat.

Make it a Cadbury's Crunchie Bar!

[Longcol 602]

On 14/10/2021 at 22:31, RollingJ said:

OK  - from last years figures, I accept  that 123 were slightly/seriously injured, but unless the year has got shorted to 4 months, that is not 'every day' and I note there are no pedal cyclist deaths reported.

40 cyclists seriously injured compared to 114 car drivers - out of all proportion to the numbers of cyclists v car drivers on Sheffield roads.

[Becky B 31]

21 hours ago, Resident said:

1st paragraph - Experiences by being the driver of large vehicles. 

2nd paragraph, various interaction responses from cyclists when such a topic crops up & personal interactions with cyclists.

Also, I left this out, mostly because it's already been said, however the majority of cyclists I come across whilst driving around South Yorkshire fail:

 

1. To have a road legal bicycle, usually missing required reflectors/lights at night 
2. To adhere to road signage (using left/right turn only lanes to go straight, against one way systems, riding through strictly pedestrain only zone, marked by NO VEHICLES signage, which includes cycles.)
3. To adhere to traffic signals
4. To signal their intent via the use of hand signals
5. To not put themselves in harms way because they don't want to wait. (Recently witnessed 2 cyclists attempting to squeeze inbetween 2 large vehicles sat side by side at traffic lights on a dual carriageway, the gap was less than 1.5m ;))
6. To not break the law by cycling on the pavement (usually to circumvent lights/one way systems).

For your reference I drive over 4000 miles total around South Yorkshire per month between my job & personal driving so when you think about dismissing what I've said as infrequent instances, let me assure you some or all of the above I witness DAILY, very often multiple times. 

 

 

How many motorists do you see with highway code/driving infractions? Or do you just forget those because you're also a motorist, and that's OK? Is it just that you feed your confirmation bias because you don't like cyclists? 

 

 

[RollingJ 2,040]

7 hours ago, Longcol said:

40 cyclists seriously injured compared to 114 car drivers - out of all proportion to the numbers of cyclists v car drivers on Sheffield roads.

That was not the point I was making - the emphasised but was no pedal cyclist deaths - which to correct a mis-statement.

[Findlay 116]

On 14/10/2021 at 21:31, RollingJ said:

OK  - from last years figures, I accept  that 123 were slightly/seriously injured, but unless the year has got shorted to 4 months, that is not 'every day' and I note there are no pedal cyclist deaths reported.

 

2 hours ago, RollingJ said:

That was not the point I was making - the emphasised but was no pedal cyclist deaths - which to correct a mis-statement.

 

On 14/10/2021 at 21:04, RollingJ said:

Bolded bit - you have documented proof of that claim?

You only refer to  the cyclists in the set of statistics I spent time collecting. You are welcome.

I said that someone is injured or killed on Sheffield's roads every day so it is not me that mis interpreted the data.

[Findlay 116]

On 18/10/2021 at 09:33, Resident said:

1st paragraph - Experiences by being the driver of large vehicles. 

2nd paragraph, various interaction responses from cyclists when such a topic crops up & personal interactions with cyclists.

Also, I left this out, mostly because it's already been said, however the majority of cyclists I come across whilst driving around South Yorkshire fail:

 

1. To have a road legal bicycle, usually missing required reflectors/lights at night 
2. To adhere to road signage (using left/right turn only lanes to go straight, against one way systems, riding through strictly pedestrain only zone, marked by NO VEHICLES signage, which includes cycles.)
3. To adhere to traffic signals
4. To signal their intent via the use of hand signals
5. To not put themselves in harms way because they don't want to wait. (Recently witnessed 2 cyclists attempting to squeeze inbetween 2 large vehicles sat side by side at traffic lights on a dual carriageway, the gap was less than 1.5m ;))
6. To not break the law by cycling on the pavement (usually to circumvent lights/one way systems).

For your reference I drive over 4000 miles total around South Yorkshire per month between my job & personal driving so when you think about dismissing what I've said as infrequent instances, let me assure you some or all of the above I witness DAILY, very often multiple times. 

 

 

I left it a while for you to have time to figure out if you understand what evidence is and how to interpret that information to reach a rationale. Even though you cover many miles it is not 1 millionth of a percent of the miles travelled across Sheffield. 

Your experience is not evidence as it is limited by time and place and does not take account of other times and places to create a set of data that can be checked and verified.

This study was not in the UK and a few years old but has clear statistical evidence https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2019/05/10/cyclists-break-far-fewer-road-rules-than-motorists-finds-new-video-study/

Point 5 is perfectly legal and taught by Department for Transport National Standards https://www.cyclescheme.co.uk/community/how-to/filtering

 

Edited October 19, 2021 by Findlay

[Resident 1,193]

1 hour ago, Findlay said:

I left it a while for you to have time to figure out if you understand what evidence is and how to interpret that information to reach a rationale. Even though you cover many miles it is not 1 millionth of a percent of the miles travelled across Sheffield. 

Your experience is not evidence as it is limited by time and place and does not take account of other times and places to create a set of data that can be checked and verified.

This study was not in the UK and a few years old but has clear statistical evidence https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2019/05/10/cyclists-break-far-fewer-road-rules-than-motorists-finds-new-video-study/

Point 5 is perfectly legal and taught by Department for Transport National Standards https://www.cyclescheme.co.uk/community/how-to/filtering

 

My experiences count towards eyewitness testimony, I am giving an account based on my observations and perfectly valid as evidence

Here's a quote from a legal website - "It is a fundamental part of the criminal process. Properly obtained, preserved and presented, eyewitness testimony directly linking the accused to the commission of the offence, is likely the most significant evidence of the prosecution."

As you say, your linked study is a few years old now and there are far more cyclists on the roads now & wasn't even conducted in the UK, It was conducted in the Netherlands, where cycling is hugely popular.

 

Oh the "iT's LeGaL" screeching arguement. Skydiving naked without a parachute is legal.  Just because something is legal doesn't make it safe and my point related to putting themselves in harm's way not law breaking.  Squeezing yourself down inbetween two large 50ft long, weighing upto 44ton  vehicles that are less than the now legal minimum spacing apart is massively unsafe. Try harder. 

 

4 hours ago, Becky B said:

How many motorists do you see with highway code/driving infractions? Or do you just forget those because you're also a motorist, and that's OK? Is it just that you feed your confirmation bias because you don't like cyclists? 

 

 

Annnnd here comes the whataboutery, right on schedule.  Typically, can't attack what was stated so trying to deflect it elsewhere. 

[the_bloke 17]

On 14/10/2021 at 09:30, Findlay said:

When I ride my bike to work, like people drive to work, I am often greeted with "Get to the edge of the road!" This is usually always accompanied by an angry self important tone. 

When I was moving tanks and helicopters by road people were a little more respectful.

 

I am not going to ride in the gutter so I can get drivers passing within six inches of me to get past and then stop at the queue of traffic at the next lights forcing me to either brake or change direction.

If it is safe to overtake I will ride in the secondary position. If it is not safe to overtake I will ride in the primary position, which is the middle of the lane,

This is a forward indication for drivers behind that is is not deemed safe by the rider in front to overtake

Riders may move into the primary position on tree bound bends or they can hear a car in front approaching, something which car drivers cannot sense.

 

Close Pass is an initiative being rolled out by police forces across the UK to reduce the number of accidents caused by drivers not giving enough space to people riding bikes. South Yorkshire Police have a number of riders attending the Bikeability scheme which includes the National Standards set by the Department for Transport. They are routinely going into live traffic, putting themselves at risk to identify bad drivers who, on purpose, drive too close to cyclists.

 

I am particularly interested as my children are wanting independence along with their friends, reaching the age where they want to be out cycling on the roads so I’m keen to find out about anything that can make this safer for them.

 

I like the assumption that you are right in your road position and the other road users are wrong. Unlike some other posters, I'm not disagreeing with riding in the primary position but perhaps the abuse you are experiencing is the difference betwixt your interpretation of what you consider safe overtaking and what the driver stuck behind you considers it.

 

You also need to take into account that the Highway Code says nothing about the primary position and most car users have passed a driving test based on the rules outlined in the Highway Code. Guidance created by cycling groups and even promoted to cyclists via schemes such as Bikeability have not yet made it into the Highway Code.

 

Also, like everyone else has pointed out, not a hate crime unless they actually shout abuse associated with a protected characteristic.

 

https://www.met.police.uk/advice/advice-and-information/hco/hate-crime/what-is-hate-crime/

 

A hate incident is any incident which the victim, or anyone else, thinks is based on someone’s prejudice towards them because of their race, religion, sexual orientation, disability or because they are transgender.

[trastrick 866]

The war on cars continues.

 

A recent visit to my ex-adopted home town, Toronto illustrated it perfectly with this shot from the Toronto Sun.

 

 

The cyclist is king now!

 

Has his own bike lane now.

 

Back to the future? Or the Brave New World!

 

Edited October 19, 2021 by trastrick