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Nurse Accused Of Murdering 8 Children.

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41 minutes ago, Delbow said:

Oh dear. There's enough of a bullying culture among NHS management already without bringing army 'discipline' into it. 

100% Agree. 

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10 hours ago, Delbow said:

Oh dear. There's enough of a bullying culture among NHS management already without bringing army 'discipline' into it. The most helpful change would be to change the culture of most NHS Trust management teams - at the moment, if patients raise concerns, the response is too often a defensive one where the Trust's management goes into damage limitation mode rather than trying to understand what's gone wrong. A number of people have pointed out the contrast with the aviation industry, where if something goes wrong the primary focus is on learning from it. Hence after Morecambe Bay we still got Telford & Shrewsbury because lessons were not learned, and then Nottingham. 

One thing that aviation has, is discipline. Thorough investigation, learning and sharing findings is not bullying, it's discipline. 

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13 hours ago, Delbow said:

Oh dear. There's enough of a bullying culture among NHS management already without bringing army 'discipline' into it. The most helpful change would be to change the culture of most NHS Trust management teams - at the moment, if patients raise concerns, the response is too often a defensive one where the Trust's management goes into damage limitation mode rather than trying to understand what's gone wrong. A number of people have pointed out the contrast with the aviation industry, where if something goes wrong the primary focus is on learning from it. Hence after Morecambe Bay we still got Telford & Shrewsbury because lessons were not learned, and then Nottingham. 

Have you been in the army and experienced army discipline  ?

Will we see mass vigils and calls for extra vetting and resignations of senior staff if the nurse is charged ?

Edited by harvey19

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3 hours ago, Tony said:

One thing that aviation has, is discipline. Thorough investigation, learning and sharing findings is not bullying, it's discipline. 

Exactly correct.  As a consequence of the snowflake society we live in the word discipline has been redefined as bullying.

 

What the NHS need in hospitals is a return to the old style Lady Matrons who ruled the wards with an iron fist.

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43 minutes ago, West 77 said:

Exactly correct.  As a consequence of the snowflake society we live in the word discipline has been redefined as bullying.

 

What the NHS need in hospitals is a return to the old style Lady Matrons who ruled the wards with an iron fist.

Well done, Tony misread my post and now you've carried on the baton. Get back in the pub.

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2 hours ago, West 77 said:

Exactly correct.  As a consequence of the snowflake society we live in the word discipline has been redefined as bullying.

 

What the NHS need in hospitals is a return to the old style Lady Matrons who ruled the wards with an iron fist.

It's all too easy to say that but at what point does ruling the wards with an iron fist translate to intimidation, overbearing, bullying and potentially threatening behaviour to staff.

 

How does one maintain that iron grip on the ward operations when they face staff members running and crying to the HR team or hiding behind their Union reps every time one of the matrons tries to to tell them off.

 

Finding the balance between robust supervision and avoiding any potential upset/complaint from employees is an absolute mindfield and a difficulty  employers have to face all the time.

 

Whilst I accept there is no benefit to merely doing a blame game and focus should be on why something went wrong and what to do to stop it happening again, there also some circumstances where clearly an individual is negligent, incompetent or reckless.   However the process, procedure, legal risks and administration in trying to formally discipline or dismiss them is very often far too much hassle so things remain status quo.

 

It's really not an easy problem to solve. 

Edited by ECCOnoob

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I'm not an iron fist kind of guy so that's not really what I meant by discipline. 

 

A good start for the NHS would be to not close ranks when somebody screws up. A genuinely independent investigation body is needed, which seeks out facts but leaves blame to the courts if it goes that far. That's how aviation works and that's why flying is less deadly than hospitals. 

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16 hours ago, Delbow said:

Oh dear. There's enough of a bullying culture among NHS management already without bringing army 'discipline' into it. The most helpful change would be to change the culture of most NHS Trust management teams - at the moment, if patients raise concerns, the response is too often a defensive one where the Trust's management goes into damage limitation mode rather than trying to understand what's gone wrong. A number of people have pointed out the contrast with the aviation industry, where if something goes wrong the primary focus is on learning from it. Hence after Morecambe Bay we still got Telford & Shrewsbury because lessons were not learned, and then Nottingham. 

To be fair, often the reason the NHS management is jumping to defence mode is because any patient complaint these days is inevitably  followed by a formal lawsuit.

 

I cannot deny that the industry I work is a contributor to that problem. There is no such thing as making a mistake these days.  It is all about finding liability and compensatory awards.

 

That goes for the employee-employer relationship too.  It is not a case anymore of employee makes negligent or reckless mistake, gets disciplined and sanctioned. Now it all has to be formally investigated, checked, documented, discussed across several meetings, Union involvement, action plans, follow-up meetings and referrals for after care support and retraining.   All as a result of  the anticipation of said employee bringing any future legal action.  

 

It is a very different world now. It is arguable that it is better this way. However as evidenced by this case, the flip side is that potentially reckless or negligent employees drift around for years on end without any retribution. How many times do we see things like this happen where the first question is " how did they get away with it for so long without nobody doing anything..."

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On 06/10/2021 at 11:17, West 77 said:

Exactly correct.  As a consequence of the snowflake society we live in the word discipline has been redefined as bullying.

 

What the NHS need in hospitals is a return to the old style Lady Matrons who ruled the wards with an iron fist.

Not true, it’s an organisational culture of closing ranks, a bit like the police are going through now. In the early 70’s, as student nurses, my colleague and I reported a member of staff for abusing elderly patients. As a result we were assigned to separate wards and warned our training was at risk by the ‘old style’ matron

Edited by catmiss
Addition

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I’ve always had the utmost respect and admiration for NHS nurses but never really understood what it takes to be one, up to now. My stepdaughter is currently in training to be a nurse and I couldn’t be more proud of her. I’m staggered by the qualifications she is having to get while chucking in a 12 hour shift with an hours commute each way. I don’t know if old school matrons are the answer but I can give an example of the problem. Nurses who are absolutely knackered and burned out by Covid are being supervised by so called ward managers who have absolutely sod all medical qualifications. Recently my girl and one other fully qualified nurse were in charge of 50 plus patients due to short staffing. Many of the nurses in her hospital are having therapy due to the amount of deaths they witnessed, helplessly, at the height of the pandemic. Given the fact that the NHS is the biggest employer in the country I don’t think the odd bad apple is statistically worth worrying about. Thank you NHS nurses.

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On 08/10/2021 at 06:43, Jim117 said:

I’ve always had the utmost respect and admiration for NHS nurses but never really understood what it takes to be one, up to now. My stepdaughter is currently in training to be a nurse and I couldn’t be more proud of her. I’m staggered by the qualifications she is having to get while chucking in a 12 hour shift with an hours commute each way. I don’t know if old school matrons are the answer but I can give an example of the problem. Nurses who are absolutely knackered and burned out by Covid are being supervised by so called ward managers who have absolutely sod all medical qualifications. Recently my girl and one other fully qualified nurse were in charge of 50 plus patients due to short staffing. Many of the nurses in her hospital are having therapy due to the amount of deaths they witnessed, helplessly, at the height of the pandemic. Given the fact that the NHS is the biggest employer in the country I don’t think the odd bad apple is statistically worth worrying about. Thank you NHS nurses.

I work in the nhs and the ward managers are qualified nurses at a band 7 role.  So they do have qualifications.

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51 minutes ago, foxydebs said:

I work in the nhs and the ward managers are qualified nurses at a band 7 role.  So they do have qualifications.

Hmmm... :huh:


Which in itself is even more worrying!

 

But it's not just in the NHS...

 

... it's the normal everyday situation in most large organisations, where people are promoted until they reach a level where they are no longer capable of doing the job. :(

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