New Road Needed To City Centre

[AndrewC 306]

2 hours ago, Anna B said:

Fair points, but can I respectfully ask what you are doing personally Bargepole to reduce your car usage?

Serious question. I don't think anyone drives for fun these days, but because they have no alternative.

Cheap public transport got the boot back in the 70's, and is not so good these days.

I can't answer for Bargepole but most people simply need to start reassessing just how 'vital' their car is and questioning whether there really aren't any viable alternatives. You say there is no alternative and to some extent with car-centric suburbanisation and poor public transport we have created many issues for ourselves, however, when people own cars that are sat outside they suddenly start massively lowering their threshold for what they consider necessary use. It's a massive confirmation bias. Once you've chucked a few bags of shopping in the boot of car at the supermarket half a mile from your home, suddenly you wonder how anyone ever managed to carry bags before. Once you've driven a mile in 2-3 minutes instead of having to walk it in 15 you tell yourself you simply don't have time to walk anywhere any more. People get somewhat brainwashed and attached to their cars.

 

There are people who do need cars. Some people all of the time, and a lot of people some of the time; but these are relatively small numbers. People with mobility issues, people who have kids placed in schools several miles from home, people shifting grand pianos etc.; but these really don't make as many trips as you might think. I'd say upwards of 60% of daily car trips could be questioned.

 

Of course, it's a two-way street. People need help in order to start making that decision to ditch the car easier. We need to do a few major things;

• Reverse the trend for low-density, car-centric housing development. We must start building communities which provide as many services/jobs/public transport connections within walking/cycling distance as possible. Barret-home suburbs where you need a car just to get to your solitary local shop need to be discouraged.
• Make walking/cycling more attractive and accessible. Improve the quality of cycle lanes and pavements, and tackle issues like pavement parking and dangerous junctions.
• Improve public transport. I actually get on fairly well with Sheffield's public transport but I'm one person with a specific set of circumstances. Every route needs to be more regular. The tram needs to be expanded. It might seem unlikely but honestly places like Manchester and - to give a more Sheffield-scaled example - Nottingham have shown what good planning and investment can do. Instead, every bus lane is squabbled over in this city, and the supertram can barely afford to maintain what it has now, much less build new routes.

 

The above will take investment & political will. I never thought I'd say the Tories were doing a good job on anything, but they have been pretty sharp on telling councils to take the active travel routes, and making funding available for it. Nottingham has shown that city centre parking levys can work, and businesses aren't averse to them if it means they get investment in local transport in return. It's doable, but people have to start accepting that the car and roadspace devoted to the car is going to be squeezed as a result.

 

People often like to think the car & car drivers are hard-done-by, which is funny, because honestly, when you look at the money and land given over to motoring since WW2, no transport mode has had more resources spent on it. It's had an easy ride.

 

 

Sorry, long post. In answer to the actual thread question, don't expect any actual new road, ever.  Road building in urban areas is a pretty toxic policy even if you've got a nice empty space to use; through a relatively built-up area like Woodseats etc.,? No chance. No one is paying for the land or the tarmac.

 

[carosio 186]

In a harsh winter, most commuters aren't going to relish bicycles, even electric ones. Moreover, waiting at a bus stop out in the sticks with snow/sleet down back of the neck isn't too pleasant, either.

But it's true that the main roads are heavily congested, apart from  a "window" between 10.30am and 1.30pm. I choose not to drive on arterial roads outside these times, but I'm lucky as I'm retired.

[ads36 214]

1 hour ago, carosio said:

In a harsh winter, most commuters aren't going to relish bicycles, even electric ones. Moreover, waiting at a bus stop out in the sticks with snow/sleet down back of the neck isn't too pleasant, either.

you'd be surprised then, to hear that a *lot* of regular cycle-commuters positively look forward to the colder weather - myself included, i love the cold commutes!

 

a couple of layers, a half-decent jacket, 5mins gentle pedalling, and you're toasty warm. (most cycling jackets have vents to let cold air *in*)

 

try this : type "copenhagen bike snow" into google, and search for images. 

 

It's obviously not everyone's cup of tea, but the Danes are not uniquely hardy. Remember that actual snow, and grotty winter weather isn't a daily occurrence it's rare, forecast in advance, and usually short-lived.

 

(it's easy to sit in a car, and imagine the horror of being outside, but the people that actually do it don't seem to mind)

Edited September 20, 2021 by ads36

[HeHasRisen 3,381]

1 hour ago, bassett one said:

could there not be a tram,taking in huge amounts of people from dronfield,lowedges,batemoor,meadowhead,jordanthorpe ect,this if priced correctly would ease the congestion and buit over or under could solve it.

There could be.

 

There could also be a monorail. Or limousines. Or a maglev train. Or give everyone their own jetpack. Or they could invent a teleporting device to get everyone from Woodseats to Coles Corner in 1.4 seconds. 

Edited September 20, 2021 by HeHasRisen

[AndrewC 306]

5 minutes ago, HeHasRisen said:

There could be.

 

There could also be a monorail. Or limousines. Or a maglev train. Or give everyone their own jetpack. Or they could invent a teleporting device to get everyone from Woodseats to Coles Corner in 1.4 seconds. 

Finding the investment and political will to do it would be hard work, but a tram or tram-train extension to the south of Sheffield as bassett one suggests is a genuine possibility and one of the first that tends to get mooted when the people in charge discuss these things (for however a short a time they do discuss it).

 

So it doesn't deserve mocking sarcasm.

[HeHasRisen 3,381]

9 minutes ago, AndrewC said:

Finding the investment and political will to do it would be hard work, but a tram or tram-train extension to the south of Sheffield as bassett one suggests is a genuine possibility and one of the first that tends to get mooted when the people in charge discuss these things (for however a short a time they do discuss it).

 

So it doesn't deserve mocking sarcasm.

Well it does. "Built over or under". Under or over what, exactly? A tram route on stilts from Meadowhead to the City Centre, or in a tunnel?

 

Come on now 🤣

 

The only SENSIBLE suggestion would be to extend the Purple route from near its current terminus at Herdings Park, maybe along the double carriageway ring road, but given the tram network has been in place for 27 years without a single extension being made to it (the Tram-Train doesnt count as its using the rail network, not an expansion of the tram network), I cant see this happening.

 

In any case, the OP started off moaning about the need for a new road, so why he has now moved onto wanting a new public transport link, I have no idea.

Edited September 20, 2021 by HeHasRisen

[ECCOnoob 1,021]

This is all well and good, and I don't disagree with many of the points that Andrew C has raised in their post...but

 

Nobody seems to be addressing the obvious first question and biggest hurdle that most of these  campaigners and groups seem to constantly ignore --  Why exactly should car drivers give up their vehicles. Why should they face some arbitrary decision on whether they need to use their car or not. They worked hard to pay for that vehicle. They pay for tax on that vehicle. Driving lessons and tests cost a lot of money and are hard work for many people to achieve. Driving is a perfectly legal activity mandated by the government. ....    so, why on earth are people suddenly expected to stop after all that time and effort.

 

Yes we have all heard the campaigns, yes we are all aware of the environmental impact but nearly all of the dialogue is focused on how vehicles are powered not the use of personal transport itself. Solution:   change how they are powered and that is down to manufacturers and government not individual drivers.

 

Yes we have all heard the dialogue about too many vehicles on the road but many would argue that that is a result of overpopulation and those selfish breeders are just as much a contributor to global warming than 100 car drivers.   So how come the proud parents and yummy mummy brigade are not getting penalised the same way and made to face some harsh decision.

 

Yes there are alternative means of getting around but a vast majority of people do not live in high-density urban environments like London or New York. They live in Suburbs. The working world and globalisation of economy means that many of them have to travel well beyond their place of residence everyday to get to work.

 

Finally let's not forget the simple fact that nothing public transport wise is ever going to beat the the absolute control, flexibility and convenience of having personal transport. A miserable day sat in a traffic jam in a car is one thing but I bet most car drivers will still prefer it to being sitting in a traffic jam with loads of strangers on a bus or stuck in some cold damp railway station because of some delay or crammed underground in a sewer train. 

 

That is the first hurdle needs to be got over before anything else starts being brought up. 

 

All well and good going for the easy targets, disrupting and making a nuisance like the morons currently on the M25 but who exactly is answering the tough questions.

 

It's almost laughable that car drivers are being penalised the way they are when our impact on the global emissions is minuscule compared to some other countries and the government announce they are already doing something about it.  Add on the fact that they they are threatening to push car drivers into all Electric in the next decade when we are still running 50 year old diesel trains on our crippled embarrassing rail network. When the government does try to do something to drag the railways into the 21st century the same morons probably protesting on the M25 are then complaining about HS2 and the disruption that's going to cause to the landscape.  When the local authority tries to set up some ambitious tram network it's always met with the "how much?" brigade banging on about how many nurses or doctors or care workers it could pay for....

 

People wonder why these don't get taken seriously.

[AndrewC 306]

11 minutes ago, HeHasRisen said:

Well it does. "Built over or under". Under or over what, exactly? A tram route on stilts from Meadowhead to the City Centre, or in a tunnel?

 

Come on now 🤣

 

The only SENSIBLE suggestion would be to extend the Purple route from near its current terminus at Herdings Park, maybe along the double carriageway ring road, but given the tram network has been in place for 27 years without a single extension being made to it (the Tram-Train doesnt count as its using the rail network, not an expansion of the tram network), I cant see this happening.

I can't believe you read so much in to the 'over or under' bit! Wow.

 

Let's keep it simple - bassett one says extending the tram (with reasonable fares) to somewhere near Meadowhead roundabout would help ease congestion between there and town. They're right. You've even managed to come up with your own workable solution to make Bassetone's suggestion happen. Well done!

 

I quite agree that it's disheartening that so little has been invested in the supertram system over the last 30 years. That doesn't mean we should accept nothing will ever happen in the future. Cities like Manchester and Nottingham have seen rapid extensions made to their systems. It just requires political will and investment. Hard to come by, but they found a way; Sheffield can too.

 

No one who gets the benefit of new supertram extensions reaching their neighbourhoods will give a toss if it utilises the rail network or new tram lines. If it's a way to provide a reliable tram link to people currently not on the system, at half the price of building all new on-street infrastructure, then we should take it. Extensions to Totley, Darnall, Waverley etc. could all make use of tram-train technology.

[HeHasRisen 3,381]

My suggestion much more sensible than building a network on stilts or in a tunnel, but well done for replying to the poster rather than the post. Well done! Have a pat on the head.

[AndrewC 306]

31 minutes ago, ECCOnoob said:

This is all well and good, and I don't disagree with many of the points that Andrew C has raised in their post...but

 

 

You ask some good questions and make some good points - and I will reply! - but it will have to be later on 👍

[ads36 214]

1 hour ago, ECCOnoob said:

This is all well and good, and I don't disagree with many of the points that Andrew C has raised in their post...but

 

Nobody seems to be addressing the obvious first question and biggest hurdle that most of these  campaigners and groups seem to constantly ignore --  Why exactly should car drivers give up their vehicles. Why should they face some arbitrary decision on whether they need to use their car or not. They worked hard to pay for that vehicle. They pay for tax on that vehicle. Driving lessons and tests cost a lot of money and are hard work for many people to achieve. Driving is a perfectly legal activity mandated by the government. ....    so, why on earth are people suddenly expected to stop after all that time and effort.

it's a great question.

 

we need to make the alternatives *better* than driving.

 

(quicker, more reliable, cheaper, less stressful,  etc.)

 

for sake of argument, let's build a tram line from Meadowhead, to the city centre. A journey of about 4 miles, with a stop every mile.

 

that journey would take about 15-20 minutes - unaffected by traffic, and cost a few quid.

 

you'd have to be mental to choose driving, if that option existed.

 

.

 

See also, bike lanes. they're cheap, high capacity, and fast. why on earth would i drive to the city centre if there was a safe bike route that got me there in 25mins?

Edited September 20, 2021 by ads36

[altus 538]

48 minutes ago, ECCOnoob said:

This is all well and good, and I don't disagree with many of the points that Andrew C has raised in their post...but

 

Nobody seems to be addressing the obvious first question and biggest hurdle that most of these  campaigners and groups seem to constantly ignore --  Why exactly should car drivers give up their vehicles. Why should they face some arbitrary decision on whether they need to use their car or not. They worked hard to pay for that vehicle. They pay for tax on that vehicle. Driving lessons and tests cost a lot of money and are hard work for many people to achieve. Driving is a perfectly legal activity mandated by the government. ....    so, why on earth are people suddenly expected to stop after all that time and effort.

Because they don't like sitting in the traffic jams.

Quote

Yes we have all heard the campaigns, yes we are all aware of the environmental impact but nearly all of the dialogue is focused on how vehicles are powered not the use of personal transport itself. Solution:   change how they are powered and that is down to manufacturers and government not individual drivers.

Changing how they are powered is about improving the environment as a whole which benefits everyone - including the owners of the cars.

Quote

Yes we have all heard the dialogue about too many vehicles on the road but many would argue that that is a result of overpopulation and those selfish breeders are just as much a contributor to global warming than 100 car drivers.   So how come the proud parents and yummy mummy brigade are not getting penalised the same way and made to face some harsh decision.

 

Yes there are alternative means of getting around but a vast majority of people do not live in high-density urban environments like London or New York. They live in Suburbs. The working world and globalisation of economy means that many of them have to travel well beyond their place of residence everyday to get to work.

Both of these are about 70+ years of transport infrastructure designed around car use - making the alternatives more difficult. People don't have to travel long distances to get to work - they choose to. They could choose to move closer to work or choose to get a job closer to home. There are people who make choices that means they do not travel long distances to get to work, not it's not impossible.

Quote

Finally let's not forget the simple fact that nothing public transport wise is ever going to beat the the absolute control, flexibility and convenience of having personal transport. A miserable day sat in a traffic jam in a car is one thing but I bet most car drivers will still prefer it to being sitting in a traffic jam with loads of strangers on a bus or stuck in some cold damp railway station because of some delay or crammed underground in a sewer train. 

 

That is the first hurdle needs to be got over before anything else starts being brought up. 

Public transport certainly should be improved but the first hurdle that needs to be got over is that those who's lifestyles are built around using their cars for everything are going to have to accept that the government is not going to base transport infrastructure primarily around them in the future.