Sasha Johnson Blm Black Panther Of London

[Waldo 96]

17 hours ago, makapaka said:

Sorry I don’t get you. If it happens undoubtedly - why do you need another factor to contribute?

Because my friend, it's important to have a clear and true picture of what's going on; so we know how big or small a problem actually is, and to accurately asses causes before we start trying to alleviate symptoms etc.

 

Sometimes, yes, people are discriminated against solely on the basis of their race. e.g. John thinks to himself - I’m not even going to consider this person for the job (or line of credit, or whatever) because I don’t like their race.

 

Sometimes, people discriminate (make assessments about us) for other reasons, and race is coincidental. e.g. Miranda thinks to herself - I don’t like poor people, they smell bad and wear second-hand clothes, they don't know how to behave in polite company, a poor person isn’t getting no job at my company.

 

Now, if there are a higher incidence of poor people in one race compared with another; it would appear that Miranda is discriminating on the basis of race; but she couldn’t care less about a person’s race, only how wealthy they are.

 

There are all kinds of ways in which people assess and place value on each other; it's not just race and wealth.

[Delbow 693]

4 hours ago, Waldo said:

Because my friend, it's important to have a clear and true picture of what's going on; so we know how big or small a problem actually is, and to accurately asses causes before we start trying to alleviate symptoms etc.

 

Sometimes, yes, people are discriminated against solely on the basis of their race. e.g. John thinks to himself - I’m not even going to consider this person for the job (or line of credit, or whatever) because I don’t like their race.

 

Sometimes, people discriminate (make assessments about us) for other reasons, and race is coincidental. e.g. Miranda thinks to herself - I don’t like poor people, they smell bad and wear second-hand clothes, they don't know how to behave in polite company, a poor person isn’t getting no job at my company.

 

Now, if there are a higher incidence of poor people in one race compared with another; it would appear that Miranda is discriminating on the basis of race; but she couldn’t care less about a person’s race, only how wealthy they are.

 

There are all kinds of ways in which people assess and place value on each other; it's not just race and wealth.

The thing is, it's so much more subtle than this. While there are undoubtedly some people like 'John', most people don't consciously discriminate, they make discriminatory decisions without realising. For example, for as long as the UK has been keeping data on the issue, we've known that Black Caribbean and Black African people are more likely than any other ethinc group to be detained under the Mental Health Act instead of being voluntarily admitted to hospital; that they are more likely to be given higher doses of the strongest psychotropic drugs; that they are more likely to be physically restrained while in hospital. Yet I doubt there are any psychiatrists or nurses working in psychiatric hospitals who think "here comes another black person, I'll make sure I treat them worse than the others". It's bias, but it's not conscious. While it is helpful to look at individual experiences because it humanises the issue more than looking at statistics, focusing too much on individual experience risks masking the systemic level of racism, and allows us all to think "well, I'm not an EDL thug who uses racist words and does Nazi salutes, therefore I can't do or think anything racist". Even the best of us can do or think the wrong thing sometimes, it's because of how we're raised within a racist culture.

[Waldo 96]

Of course, very subtle and nuanced, with multiple dynamics at play.

 

I intended replying to your previous post with my own insights on the matter, just not got round to it yet.

[Guest makapaka]

4 hours ago, Waldo said:

Because my friend, it's important to have a clear and true picture of what's going on; so we know how big or small a problem actually is, and to accurately asses causes before we start trying to alleviate symptoms etc.

 

Sometimes, yes, people are discriminated against solely on the basis of their race. e.g. John thinks to himself - I’m not even going to consider this person for the job (or line of credit, or whatever) because I don’t like their race.

 

Sometimes, people discriminate (make assessments about us) for other reasons, and race is coincidental. e.g. Miranda thinks to herself - I don’t like poor people, they smell bad and wear second-hand clothes, they don't know how to behave in polite company, a poor person isn’t getting no job at my company.

 

Now, if there are a higher incidence of poor people in one race compared with another; it would appear that Miranda is discriminating on the basis of race; but she couldn’t care less about a person’s race, only how wealthy they are.

 

There are all kinds of ways in which people assess and place value on each other; it's not just race and wealth.

I don’t disagree that there is other types of discrimination. 
 

but we know one is about race.

 

if your point is we should oppose all types of discrimination- I agree.

 

[Waldo 96]

9 minutes ago, makapaka said:

I don’t disagree that there is other types of discrimination. 
 

but we know one is about race.

 

if your point is we should oppose all types of discrimination- I agree.

 

Point I was making is, sometimes things that may appear to be racially motivated when they actually aren’t.

 

Also, with statistics, for example with the 17% black males thing mentioned earlier, we can’t be sure that the full 17% is attributable to racism; there can be other factors at play which are disproportionately represented within a particular demographic (in this instance, black males). You have to do a full complete assessment and look at multiple explanations as to why statistics are what they are.

 

Of course, that’s not the be all and end all of my views on the matter, just the points I was making in response to you.

[butlers 259]

18 year old charged with conspiracy to murder

[Waldo 96]

On 27/05/2021 at 22:18, Delbow said:

Pay inequality for the same role is illegal. That is not the problem here, the problem is that the higher paying roles are less likely to be offered to Black graduates than white graduates, which causes and then perpetuates the pay gap. It's really not difficult to see why - I've done loads of recruitment, and it's not a science. It's humans picking other humans, and while we can (and should) try to select on merit, humans also like familiarity, and if the people doing the picking can relate to you better than someone else then it gives you the edge.

 

Then if the majority of the people doing the picking are white, which they are, then it gives us white people an edge. There are a lot of people who don't want to accept this, because most people want to feel that they got a job because they were the best candidate, and it makes them feel uncomfortable to consider whether that might not always have been true. But I have accepted that maybe I wasn't always the best candidate for the jobs I got. I'm good in job interviews, very good in fact. My current employer told me I 'blew them away' in my interview. As usual, the panel was all white, we were all from the same culture. What if we weren't? Would I still have blown them away? Maybe, maybe not.

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you Delbow; and thank you for sharing your insights.

 

Yes, definitely, I think we all suffer to a degree, with racial bias (something that a lot us probably don't care to admit, or are even aware of). We could look at why this is...

 

I suspect a number of factors, social and biological. For example, just as a matter of biology, a person may be more able to distinguish more different emotions and facial non-verbal cues when communicating with a person of their own race. If that's true (can't refer you to any studies, but I suspect it is true), our ability to communicate and so build rapport with members of other races, is naturally inhibited. Now, if being able to communicate with work colleagues, to share ideas etc, is important within an organisation, you could see how this would disadvantage people from different races.

 

That's just one factor, there are definitely others; I believe multiple reasons why we see 'birds of a feather flocking together' in all walks of life. If you did a survey, to discover who people mix with, who they hang out and are friends with; I suspect you'd find that on average, people tend to mix with other members of their own race. Evidence of how prevalent racial bias is?

 

Going back to your job interview example; in an organisation of predominantly black employees and boss, the same dynamic would be at play, and a white person would be disadvantaged. What's to stop these (black owned) organisations from growing in power and influence and taking over the world (in a financial dominance sense)? People are free to apply themselves as they choose fit. No-one is going to hand it to them on a plate of course, but where there's a will there's a way. Good luck to them, it's always nice to see a success story, especially when people have put in the work and made it happen for themselves.

 

 

In order to counteract this racial bias, is it the case that some organisations are required (or choose) to have quotas, in order to employ a certain percentage of people from different demographics (including race)? If so, I'm not convinced as to wisdom of forcing such things (essentially, devices that compel people to behave more favourable to one group of people over another, in order to achieve equality of outcome). I suspect when people are compelled away from what they naturally feel, there is a degree of resentment and unintended consequence. I'd also suspect a lot of black people would prefer to be hired on merit, because the boss of a company actually want's them, rather than wanting a statistic to fill some quota?

 

If we want to live in a world where racial bias is minimised (and I feel things are getting better, certainly here in the UK) and genuine good will is fostered between the races, I really don't feel trying to compel that will help. I feel it's a natural process, aided by proximity between races, and things will naturally improve over time (but not over night). You don't make grass grow faster by trying to pull it up...

 

I could be wrong in any or all of this, it's not at all my area of expertise, just sharing my insights and thoughts for what they're worth. It's a very complex topic, but I'm not at all sure how much of the 17% black male graduates statistic, is attributable to racial bias.

 

Anyhow, just wanted to link to my post in the other thread, where I suggest there could be a negative feedback loop at play, this could possibly be reflected in the statistics.

 

 

[Guest makapaka]

On 29/05/2021 at 16:32, Waldo said:

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you Delbow; and thank you for sharing your insights.

 

Yes, definitely, I think we all suffer to a degree, with racial bias (something that a lot us probably don't care to admit, or are even aware of). We could look at why this is...

 

I suspect a number of factors, social and biological. For example, just as a matter of biology, a person may be more able to distinguish more different emotions and facial non-verbal cues when communicating with a person of their own race. If that's true (can't refer you to any studies, but I suspect it is true), our ability to communicate and so build rapport with members of other races, is naturally inhibited. Now, if being able to communicate with work colleagues, to share ideas etc, is important within an organisation, you could see how this would disadvantage people from different races.

 

That's just one factor, there are definitely others; I believe multiple reasons why we see 'birds of a feather flocking together' in all walks of life. If you did a survey, to discover who people mix with, who they hang out and are friends with; I suspect you'd find that on average, people tend to mix with other members of their own race. Evidence of how prevalent racial bias is?

 

Going back to your job interview example; in an organisation of predominantly black employees and boss, the same dynamic would be at play, and a white person would be disadvantaged. What's to stop these (black owned) organisations from growing in power and influence and taking over the world (in a financial dominance sense)? People are free to apply themselves as they choose fit. No-one is going to hand it to them on a plate of course, but where there's a will there's a way. Good luck to them, it's always nice to see a success story, especially when people have put in the work and made it happen for themselves.

 

 

In order to counteract this racial bias, is it the case that some organisations are required (or choose) to have quotas, in order to employ a certain percentage of people from different demographics (including race)? If so, I'm not convinced as to wisdom of forcing such things (essentially, devices that compel people to behave more favourable to one group of people over another, in order to achieve equality of outcome). I suspect when people are compelled away from what they naturally feel, there is a degree of resentment and unintended consequence. I'd also suspect a lot of black people would prefer to be hired on merit, because the boss of a company actually want's them, rather than wanting a statistic to fill some quota?

 

If we want to live in a world where racial bias is minimised (and I feel things are getting better, certainly here in the UK) and genuine good will is fostered between the races, I really don't feel trying to compel that will help. I feel it's a natural process, aided by proximity between races, and things will naturally improve over time (but not over night). You don't make grass grow faster by trying to pull it up...

 

I could be wrong in any or all of this, it's not at all my area of expertise, just sharing my insights and thoughts for what they're worth. It's a very complex topic, but I'm not at all sure how much of the 17% black male graduates statistic, is attributable to racial bias.

 

Anyhow, just wanted to link to my post in the other thread, where I suggest there could be a negative feedback loop at play, this could possibly be reflected in the statistics.

 

 

Utter drivel - never read such nonsense.

“I suspect a number of factors, social and biological. For example, just as a matter of biology, a person may be more able to distinguish more different emotions and facial non-verbal cues when communicating with a person of their own race. If that's true (can't refer you to any studies, but I suspect it is true),”

 

Eh? What???

 

 

Edited May 30, 2021 by makapaka