Has The Time Come To Replace The Welfare State With Universal Basic Income?

[Ms Macbeth 73]

My understanding of UBI is that the tax system would kick in so the wealthiest would see no increase in their income, the middling workers would probably retain a bit extra, the lowest paid would see the biggest benefit, ie it would be financially worth while to take temporary, part time and zero hours jobs, leading to fewer people being completely benefit dependent. Those who didn't work wouldn't be sanctioned, but their living standards would be basic, as now.

 

There would have to be special allowances on top, enhanced for disability, for children etc.   Simpler than the current system, and much less reliant on means testing.

[ECCOnoob 1,040]

6 minutes ago, Ms Macbeth said:

My understanding of UBI is that the tax system would kick in so the wealthiest would see no increase in their income, the middling workers would probably retain a bit extra, the lowest paid would see the biggest benefit, ie it would be financially worth while to take temporary, part time and zero hours jobs, leading to fewer people being completely benefit dependent. Those who didn't work wouldn't be sanctioned, but their living standards would be basic, as now.

 

There would have to be special allowances on top, enhanced for disability, for children etc.   Simpler than the current system, and much less reliant on means testing.

That's fair enough. But at what point do the wealthiest start to think sod this and leave to go somewhere else where they can keep increasing their income.

 

Who then picks up the slack to keep up that high level of benefit to the lowest earners. Does the middle portion get squeezed even more (as usual).

 

At what point does it go full circle and we start having the inevitable conflict and resentment of those modest earners feeling they are funding the lifestyles of others who can but choose not to work.  That feeling is a hard thing to break.

[the_bloke 17]

A true Universal Basic Income system is when everybody, regardless of circumstance, gets a flat amount of money from the Government. So the unemployed get £100 a week (as an example figure), people in low paid jobs get that plus whatever they earn, as do high earners as do pensioners. Presumably disabled people who aren't in work get extra, and the system should take into account the requirements of existing benefits to make sure claimants aren't suffering a loss.

 

But no, there shouldn't be any means testing, that's the point. Everyone gets the same. I get it, you get it, people who don't want to work get it.

[trastrick 866]

16 hours ago, El Cid said:

Do tax credits take away the incentive to work?

No, tax credits reduce taxes for working taxpayers. That's an "incentive" to work.

 

A UBI  is a disincentive to work.

 

Business Insider, (https://www.businessinsider.com/yang-warren-universal-basic-income-idea-bad-2019-11)

 

"Unlike programs crafted to specifically help people with low income and those with disabilities, a UBI program would, by design, spread payments across the widest possible base.

This means that while the economically vulnerable would receive support, so too would middle- to upper-income families. Why give some money to everyone, rather than offer dedicated assistance to those who need it?"

 

It must be paid for! The UK National Debt (Borrowing from future generations) is already steeply rising and unsustainable, especially in an economic crisis.

 

You've seen recently what happens when the welfare state runs out of money, and can borrow no more. 

 

Rioting and burning on the streets.

 

There is no Free Lunch.

 

 

[the_bloke 17]

31 minutes ago, trastrick said:

No, tax credits reduce taxes for working taxpayers. That's an "incentive" to work.

 

A UBI  is a disincentive to work.

One of the studies actually discovered that; knowing there was an uninterrupted basic income instead of a time limited benefit equivalent to JSA meant that people were less stressed being out of work - because they didn't have to find work in a given timeframe - and also didn't change the unemployment rate. UBI was not a greater incentive to find work than the existing system.

 

The focus on UBI is also on the unemployed; I've not seen anything that investigated the long term effects of UBI on the employed. I'd predict an increase in zero hours contracts as a start and a stagnation of the minimum wage, yet an increase in the cost of living and inflation as everyone suddenly has more money.

[tinfoilhat 11]

41 minutes ago, the_bloke said:

One of the studies actually discovered that; knowing there was an uninterrupted basic income instead of a time limited benefit equivalent to JSA meant that people were less stressed being out of work - because they didn't have to find work in a given timeframe - and also didn't change the unemployment rate. UBI was not a greater incentive to find work than the existing system.

 

The focus on UBI is also on the unemployed; I've not seen anything that investigated the long term effects of UBI on the employed. I'd predict an increase in zero hours contracts as a start and a stagnation of the minimum wage, yet an increase in the cost of living and inflation as everyone suddenly has more money.

I think it would certainly encourage people to take work - as you say zero hours and temp contracts would go through the roof - because they can take a couple of weeks of work safe in the knowledge they won't have to fight for 6 weeks to get their benefits back. 

 

The current system doesn't encourage work.

[Mr Allen 0]

26 minutes ago, tinfoilhat said:

I think it would certainly encourage people to take work - as you say zero hours and temp contracts would go through the roof - because they can take a couple of weeks of work safe in the knowledge they won't have to fight for 6 weeks to get their benefits back. 

 

The current system doesn't encourage work.

It doesn't but contrary to the ill informed warblings of the Daily Fail, not everyone on benefits is a "workshy slave to the benefit system"

 

I've been trying for the last several years to get a job and have had several interviews, but because I've only ever worked in Charity shops, which are literally the only place that will take on a disabled person who can only work a few hours a week due to being on benefits, they don't wanna know.

 

 

[El Cid 219]

1 hour ago, the_bloke said:

One of the studies actually discovered that; knowing there was an uninterrupted basic income instead of a time limited benefit equivalent to JSA meant that people were less stressed being out of work - because they didn't have to find work in a given timeframe - and also didn't change the unemployment rate. UBI was not a greater incentive to find work than the existing system.

Maybe if they said everyone was going to get housing benefit, those that dont get it now would see it as a positive and get behind it? So you would get housing benefit even if you owned your own home.

I have always thought people should be gauranteed somewhere to live. The first part of any benefit should go towards rent/mortgage. That is one of the problems with universal credits.

[trastrick 866]

The only disincentive to work, is high taxes.

 

High taxes create  an underground economy wherever it exists. Black Market.

 

Come on, be honest.

 

How many of you out there have paid cash (no receipt) for stuff, or work done for you?

 

 

1 hour ago, the_bloke said:

One of the studies actually discovered that; knowing there was an uninterrupted basic income instead of a time limited benefit equivalent to JSA meant that people were less stressed being out of work - because they didn't have to find work in a given timeframe - and also didn't change the unemployment rate. UBI was not a greater incentive to find work than the existing system.

 

The focus on UBI is also on the unemployed; I've not seen anything that investigated the long term effects of UBI on the employed. I'd predict an increase in zero hours contracts as a start and a stagnation of the minimum wage, yet an increase in the cost of living and inflation as everyone suddenly has more money.

A couple of morality tales:

 

1. In my former home, Toronto, in the fall, vast flocks of Canada Geese fill the skies on their way South for the winter. Toronto Island was a resting point where they fed and gathered for the next leg of their flight. Some who were sickly never made it, and stayed through the winter.

 

Some of our "caring" folks thought it would be a neat idea to provide feed for them to help them on their way. This little project grew, with local government support, to a major wetland project where beautiful artificial wetlands were created around the islands from landfill.

 

In a couple of years the overwintering geese grew in great numbers. The geese gave up their independence. Toronto parks were overun and fouled, the formally pristine beaches were polluted and closed.

 

So they began a new program to deal with the "problem". Their eggs were poisoned, handlers with dogs were hired to harrass and terrify them, and drive them off. Now the beaches and parks are usable again.

 

2. In the Congo, Uganda, Rwanda, the poor have scratched at marginal and often barren land to sustain themselves using primitive tools. Water is carried long distances.

 

Thanks? to relief agencies, U.N., Red Cross, U.S. and others, thousands of truckloads of sacks of grain are shipped into villages, and outlying locals come down into the villages to wait for it, abandoning their meagre rural existence.

 

Refugee camps overwhelm the villages and often violence breaks out as they scramble to unload the trucks. They lost their independence.

 

Now police have to disperse the squatters, who now totally rely on the trucked in supplies, using tear gas and other means.

 

The moral?

 

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Edited May 19, 2021 by trastrick

[geared 313]

Would UBI also replace state pension, or would state pension be adjusted somehow to account for the UBI the person is receiving?

[GabrielC 55]

11 hours ago, geared said:

Would UBI also replace state pension, or would state pension be adjusted somehow to account for the UBI the person is receiving?

Everyone would get UBI no adjusting needed. 

[GabrielC 55]

20 hours ago, trastrick said:

The only disincentive to work, is high taxes.

 

High taxes create  an underground economy wherever it exists. Black Market.

 

Come on, be honest.

 

How many of you out there have paid cash (no receipt) for stuff, or work done for you?

 

 

A couple of morality tales:

 

1. In my former home, Toronto, in the fall, vast flocks of Canada Geese fill the skies on their way South for the winter. Toronto Island was a resting point where they fed and gathered for the next leg of their flight. Some who were sickly never made it, and stayed through the winter.

 

Some of our "caring" folks thought it would be a neat idea to provide feed for them to help them on their way. This little project grew, with local government support, to a major wetland project where beautiful artificial wetlands were created around the islands from landfill.

 

In a couple of years the overwintering geese grew in great numbers. The geese gave up their independence. Toronto parks were overun and fouled, the formally pristine beaches were polluted and closed.

 

So they began a new program to deal with the "problem". Their eggs were poisoned, handlers with dogs were hired to harrass and terrify them, and drive them off. Now the beaches and parks are usable again.

 

2. In the Congo, Uganda, Rwanda, the poor have scratched at marginal and often barren land to sustain themselves using primitive tools. Water is carried long distances.

 

Thanks? to relief agencies, U.N., Red Cross, U.S. and others, thousands of truckloads of sacks of grain are shipped into villages, and outlying locals come down into the villages to wait for it, abandoning their meagre rural existence.

 

Refugee camps overwhelm the villages and often violence breaks out as they scramble to unload the trucks. They lost their independence.

 

Now police have to disperse the squatters, who now totally rely on the trucked in supplies, using tear gas and other means.

 

The moral?

 

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Some people are already living in hell with the present system or worse living on the streets which is increasing  by the year. UBI is an safety net to prevent such extreme s from happening. Food banks are at breaking point supermarkets can not keep donating food forever given the pressures of Brexit on trade.