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The solution to seat reservations is simple. 

I drive now as it cheaper. 

I recently had a weekend in Glasgow where my drive there and back, parking, and hotel for 2 came in cheaper than the return rail fare alone. 

Well done railways. 

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16 hours ago, Annie Bynnol said:

 

In the UK a walk up and on service has always been what the public wants.

 

They public have always wanted  a seat on a train as well

 

although not really feasible on shorter distance local trains and commuter services  there is absolutely no reason why compulsory reservations could not be introduced on long distance high speed services. Well apart from of course management who say we have always done it this way and it has worked so why change.

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22 hours ago, Jim Hardie said:

The Ashoka on Ecclesall Road makes that claim.

 

 

20 hours ago, Bigal1 said:

Sorry this does not make sense. it is straight forward and would be simple. Of course it may mean you can not board the train you want but that is another issue.

 

No one is suggesting you can not travel on the inter city service from sheffield to Chesterfield just that you would have to make a reservation. IF the U.K. were to make reservations compulsory then they presumably ( a big assumption I know) make it possible to obtain the reservation at the station prior to boarding if spaces were free ( or via mobile). It is easily doable indeed I seem to recall 20+ years ago doing this on SNCF from a machine on the platform to be able to travel on the TGV.


on the whole where the inter city service is operating as a local train then standing is not usually a problem anyway and how many times have you had to stand between Sheffield and Chesterfield 

 
Sorry but this could easily be implemented in the U.K. of course it would cost a little bit and passengers would have to get used to it

 

17 hours ago, ECCOnoob said:

I would agree.

 

In fact it has already been proven during coronavirus times how easy it can be. LNER have  had a policy of mandatory reservations to join their intercity services which can be made as late as 5 minutes before departure.

 

Personally I feel it's what all of the the longer distance rail companies should have been doing and would welcome it going forward. As everybody gets on board they all have a place, they all know where they need to go and with the exception of extreme circumstances such as major disruption or special events there should be no need for or waves of people cluttering up the aiIsles and standing in corridors.

 

More companies adopted this procedure and the longer it became normality rail companies would then have real data as to what their passenger numbers are and would be more likely to push the government for funding into extra rolling stock. Let's face it, the longer we are silly enough to put up with being rammed into a corridor like sardines or literally sitting on the toilet because it's the only seat available the they will be inclined to change the status quo.

 

Of course there is always going to be the difficulty of mass commuter trains and city centre rapid transit systems but they should be the exemptions to such rules.  

Well, the rail system is a mess comparing to travelling elsewhere in Europe! Regardless of ownership or government it's clear that it's not fit for purpose.

I've travelled on many intercity trains that have been severely overcrowded and not acceptable for people travelling over a long-distance. I've always said what would happen if there was an accident with overcrowded trains running in excess of 100 miles per hour. This just doesn't happen elsewhere.

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5 minutes ago, S1 1DJ said:

 

 

Well, the rail system is a mess comparing to travelling elsewhere in Europe! Regardless of ownership or government it's clear that it's not fit for purpose.

I've travelled on many intercity trains that have been severely overcrowded and not acceptable for people travelling over a long-distance. I've always said what would happen if there was an accident with overcrowded trains running in excess of 100 miles per hour. This just doesn't happen elsewhere.

Sorry, but it does.

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57 minutes ago, Bigal1 said:

They public have always wanted  a seat on a train as well

 

although not really feasible on shorter distance local trains and commuter services  there is absolutely no reason why compulsory reservations could not be introduced on long distance high speed services. Well apart from of course management who say we have always done it this way and it has worked so why change.

Between Sheffield and Chesterfield there are 2 London trains, 2 Birmingham to Newcastle trains, 1 Liverpool Norwich and 1 Leeds Nottingham trains an hour.

Consider the traveller between Sheffield and Chesterfield:

Which trains will have compulsory seat reservations?

Will the public understand what is allowed/not allowed and exceptions? 

How will you stop people boarding?

Cramming commuters and shoppers onto fewer trains is not a good idea.

 

On a wider scale:

Is preventing people travelling from Birmingham to Newcastle because seats have been reserved between Chesterfield and Sheffield sensible?

Who pays for the loss of revenue caused by people not taking up reserved seats?

What are Season ticket holders supposed to do, make a reservations twice a day every day?

Do you re book your seat again if your train is late?

How do you force people to use the seat they have reserved?

Who is going to resolve these conflicts on short journeys?

 

I hope we realise that there is nothing more the Government would like that to regulate people into paying more.

 

 

 

 

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38 minutes ago, S1 1DJ said:

 

 

Well, the rail system is a mess comparing to travelling elsewhere in Europe! Regardless of ownership or government it's clear that it's not fit for purpose.

I've travelled on many intercity trains that have been severely overcrowded and not acceptable for people travelling over a long-distance. I've always said what would happen if there was an accident with overcrowded trains running in excess of 100 miles per hour. This just doesn't happen elsewhere.

The safety record of passengers on Britains railways is unequalled by any major railway or transport system. It would be even better if everybody was locked into a seat for the whole of their journey- but is that practical?

 

Most European systems were rebuilt after 1945, some are the cause for national pride, some built new lines years ago and some continue to do so, some are cheaper, some are overcrowded, a  few are faster and most are slower.

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4 hours ago, Annie Bynnol said:

Between Sheffield and Chesterfield there are 2 London trains, 2 Birmingham to Newcastle trains, 1 Liverpool Norwich and 1 Leeds Nottingham trains an hour.

Consider the traveller between Sheffield and Chesterfield:

Which trains will have compulsory seat reservations?

Will the public understand what is allowed/not allowed and exceptions? 

How will you stop people boarding?

Cramming commuters and shoppers onto fewer trains is not a good idea.

 

On a wider scale:

Is preventing people travelling from Birmingham to Newcastle because seats have been reserved between Chesterfield and Sheffield sensible?

Who pays for the loss of revenue caused by people not taking up reserved seats?

What are Season ticket holders supposed to do, make a reservations twice a day every day?

Do you re book your seat again if your train is late?

How do you force people to use the seat they have reserved?

Who is going to resolve these conflicts on short journeys?

 

I hope we realise that there is nothing more the Government would like that to regulate people into paying more.

 

 

 

 

Love the negativity Annie . Little wonder transport is such a mess. Far better to think how it could work think positive not negative.  Odd how other countries manage to do this but instead of learning from them you want to bury your head in the sand.

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1 hour ago, Bigal1 said:

Love the negativity Annie . Little wonder transport is such a mess. Far better to think how it could work think positive not negative.  Odd how other countries manage to do this but instead of learning from them you want to bury your head in the sand.

Reducing the number of seats available does not make for a better railway.

Increasing the cost of travel does not make for a better railway.

Removing choice of services does not make for a better railway.

Decreasing flexibility does not make for a better railway.

 

HS2 will remove the pressure on the current "intercity" services and will have its own fare and reservation system. Passengers will then have a choice.

Some will choose the non-stop premium service. Some will choose the no frills stopping service.

 

On a more local level the Government need to continue to reverse the cuts to the infrastructure, routes and capacity they made in the 80's.

 

 

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12 hours ago, Annie Bynnol said:

Reducing the number of seats available does not make for a better railway.

Increasing the cost of travel does not make for a better railway.

Removing choice of services does not make for a better railway.

Decreasing flexibility does not make for a better railway.

 

HS2 will remove the pressure on the current "intercity" services and will have its own fare and reservation system. Passengers will then have a choice.

Some will choose the non-stop premium service. Some will choose the no frills stopping service.

 

On a more local level the Government need to continue to reverse the cuts to the infrastructure, routes and capacity they made in the 80's.

 

 

Not for the first time you are changing the goal posts keep digging

 

it is a pity you chose somewhere like Chesterfield to Sheffield as your example which would never be a problem   - there will of course be some problems especially at the beginning but these would be mainly around London end and perhaps Birmingham. In the vast majority of cases there would not be any significant problems at the country end and they would be easily solved assuming competent management

 

I have absolutely no idea as to how you have decided the number of seats will fall or that prices will rise (mind you I would agree that with the proposed new organisation then we may well be seeing increasing fares

 

I note that you don't think providing a seat for everyone (on InterCity) would  make for a better railway you remain fixated on the negatives which in most cases would not be a negative anyway

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For decades there has been periodic discussion on providing guaranteed seating on trains.

Far more capable and experienced brains than ours have applied themselves to this problem.

 

The current system enables reservations on a minority of trains-normally but not always, long distance routes  carrying passengers long distances. The vast majority of reservations work, however trains are still delayed or cancelled and reservation systems fail. Overcrowding,  awkward passengers etc, -so no reservation is 100% guaranteed.

In the past operators ran Reservation only trains into London from Sheffield, Manchester etc as passengers were happy to pay the premium. These required rolling stock that was specially manned and formed.

These trains disappeared because revenue  did not meet cost or revenue was higher on the ordinary trains that replaced them.

These special Reservation only dedicated trains still run in many parts of Europe because:

1)they can as paths are available

2)people are prepared to pay a premium for  non- stop and better appointed trains.

3) pay a reservation  fee

4) higher government subsidy

5) government that control local, regional and national timetables.

 

In Britain all types of passengers traffic share the same trains and routes. This leads to the severe overcrowding on intercity services in this area, which is a much bigger and costly problem than we realise.

For example on a train which has compulsory reservations between Birmingham and Newcastle:

Passenger A buys a compulsory reserved seat  between Chesterfield and Sheffield call it seat C28

Passenger B wants to buy a compulsory reserved from Derby to Newcastle. 

All seats are have to be compulsory reserved seat so seat C28 will not be available to anybody travelling from south to north.

Seat C28 does get a booking between Birmingham and Derby but not from York to Newcastle.

The seat is carrying fresh air and loosing money.

The train previously carried unreserved and sometimes standing passengers-but that revenue is lost.

It carried season ticket holders, anytime ticket holders, people with return tickets, children, day rovers etc, etc, who shared the fares they paid between operators -this revenue is now lost.

 

To recoup the loss of revenue the train operator has to increase fare.

 

As for the man in seat C28?  He caught an earlier train.

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Annie Bynnol said:

For decades there has been periodic discussion on providing guaranteed seating on trains.

Far more capable and experienced brains than ours have applied themselves to this problem.

 

The current system enables reservations on a minority of trains-normally but not always, long distance routes  carrying passengers long distances. The vast majority of reservations work, however trains are still delayed or cancelled and reservation systems fail. Overcrowding,  awkward passengers etc, -so no reservation is 100% guaranteed.

In the past operators ran Reservation only trains into London from Sheffield, Manchester etc as passengers were happy to pay the premium. These required rolling stock that was specially manned and formed.

These trains disappeared because revenue  did not meet cost or revenue was higher on the ordinary trains that replaced them.

These special Reservation only dedicated trains still run in many parts of Europe because:

1)they can as paths are available

2)people are prepared to pay a premium for  non- stop and better appointed trains.

3) pay a reservation  fee

4) higher government subsidy

5) government that control local, regional and national timetables.

 

In Britain all types of passengers traffic share the same trains and routes. This leads to the severe overcrowding on intercity services in this area, which is a much bigger and costly problem than we realise.

For example on a train which has compulsory reservations between Birmingham and Newcastle:

Passenger A buys a compulsory reserved seat  between Chesterfield and Sheffield call it seat C28

Passenger B wants to buy a compulsory reserved from Derby to Newcastle. 

All seats are have to be compulsory reserved seat so seat C28 will not be available to anybody travelling from south to north.

Seat C28 does get a booking between Birmingham and Derby but not from York to Newcastle.

The seat is carrying fresh air and loosing money.

The train previously carried unreserved and sometimes standing passengers-but that revenue is lost.

It carried season ticket holders, anytime ticket holders, people with return tickets, children, day rovers etc, etc, who shared the fares they paid between operators -this revenue is now lost.

 

To recoup the loss of revenue the train operator has to increase fare.

 

As for the man in seat C28?  He caught an earlier train.

 

 

 

 

As I said you example of Chesterfield to sheffield is ridiculous. As you yourself acknowledge there are six trains an hour. In this example it is unlikely that cross country would allow short distance reservations like this in advance and would only be allowed to make a reservation on the platform (booking office or presumably these days via an app within a specified period prior to boarding. If they wanted to reserve a seat in advance they would book on the London train which virtually never would be fully booked from Chesterfield to Sheffield or catch the local one.  The railway would adopt clear (hopefully) rules around this. 
 

enforcement would simply be an extension of the penalty fares regime.

 

in times of disruption then of course the railway would relax rules just as they do today when you are allowed to use your ticket on another operators service and so on.

 

when you started talking about the system in Britain I thought for a moment ah ha but all you have done is explain the current problem, given a choice people will choose the InterCity train and compulsory seat reservations is a way round the problem. 
 

As I said you are way off target. BTW The government through Network rail and the regulator already control the timetable train companies bid for slots

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