Last Hst 125 Soon And Other Rail Stuff.

[Annie Bynnol 612]

3 hours ago, Bigal1 said:

As I said you example of Chesterfield to sheffield is ridiculous. As you yourself acknowledge there are six trains an hour. In this example it is unlikely that cross country would allow short distance reservations like this in advance and would only be allowed to make a reservation on the platform (booking office or presumably these days via an app within a specified period prior to boarding. If they wanted to reserve a seat in advance they would book on the London train which virtually never would be fully booked from Chesterfield to Sheffield or catch the local one.  The railway would adopt clear (hopefully) rules around this. 
 

enforcement would simply be an extension of the penalty fares regime.

 

in times of disruption then of course the railway would relax rules just as they do today when you are allowed to use your ticket on another operators service and so on.

 

when you started talking about the system in Britain I thought for a moment ah ha but all you have done is explain the current problem, given a choice people will choose the InterCity train and compulsory seat reservations is a way round the problem. 
 

As I said you are way off target. BTW The government through Network rail and the regulator already control the timetable train companies bid for slots

Cross Country trains offer reservations trains between Chesterfield and Sheffield. £6 single.

Cross Country require compulsory reservations with Advance tickets between Chesterfield and Sheffield. £2 single. 

 

Making reservations on arrival at the platform at Chesterfield is not possible on EMR -the train left London two hours before. Cross Country currently do and you could find yourself having to turf out a passenger who has been on the train since Penzance- good luck with that.

 

BTW the Government do not control the timetable. Network rail maximise paths for routes that have developed historically stipulated -this rarely changes in the core as the ramification of changing the timetable between Chesterfield and Sheffield would impact the national timetable. Train operating companies do not bid for slots. 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 17, 2021 by Annie Bynnol

[BigAl1 143]

Annie, no one is saying it could be introduced overnight of course the necessary infrastructure and communication would have to take place as well as detailed evaluation to develop the plans.

for somewhere like Chesterfield to sheffield it may well be that no reservations are need on the EMT trains but passengers would be discouraged from using XC trains.
 

It would be easy to introduce real time seat reservations indeed the system could update when the train leaves Derby. 
 

I know all this falls into your too difficult category but rest assured it is straight forward. As I said the harder bits to solve are at the London end not the northern end and on XC services.

 

I am at a complete loss to even understand why you should be raising issues about the timetable between Chesterfield and Sheffield indeed other factors apart from the introduction of compulsory seat reservations on High Speed services are far more likely to impact on the National timetable. 

 

[Annie Bynnol 612]

"It would be easy to introduce real time seat reservations indeed the system could update when the train leaves Derby." 

CrossCountry, as I have already said, described and explained in  #37, do this now. The reaction of their passengers has to say the least, been unpopular.

 

"I know all this falls into your too difficult category but rest assured it is straight forward. As I said the harder bits to solve are at the London end..." 

That is the easy bit -there is a barrier and tickets are checked before boarding or after alighting.

In London at Bank Holidays, race meetings, sunny days etc can cause massive problems with passengers not allowed to board even with reservations/reserved seats.

 

"...not the northern end and on XC services." 

The Northern end is Aberdeen, Dundee, Edinburgh which have their own overcrowding  issues.

 

On the matter of the Timetable(which you introduced inaccurately)-pretty important if you are on Chesterfield station and you watch three trains stop and leave for your destination but you cannot get on. CrossCountry or EMR will not get any revenue from you if your ticket says NT or EMR(Leeds Nottingham) services only-qv Birmingham New Street to London service.

 

Much of Europe has tiered train system where long distance services have separate operators/owners/routes and often terminus to terminus, non or limited stop.

Passengers pay higher fares for these services, pay for a single reservation and are required to check in earlier.  

 

One of the biggest problems in this area was the chronic overcrowding on TPE services between Sheffield and Manchester. The reservation system was regularly abandoned because of the added delays it caused at Piccadilly. Also clever Airport users would reserve seats on several trains just in case their plane arrival was earl/late as would commuters travelling back from Piccadilly. Other passengers got used/so annoyed by this they  ignored the reservations.

This problem has been mainly resolved- Train lengths have been doubled and Northern introduced much cheaper Advance (no seat reservations) fares.

 

Another solution HS2.

 

Edited May 19, 2021 by Annie Bynnol

[BigAl1 143]

1 hour ago, Annie Bynnol said:

"It would be easy to introduce real time seat reservations indeed the system could update when the train leaves Derby." 

CrossCountry, as I have already said, described and explained in  #37, do this now. The reaction of their passengers has to say the least, been unpopular.

 

"I know all this falls into your too difficult category but rest assured it is straight forward. As I said the harder bits to solve are at the London end..." 

That is the easy bit -there is a barrier and tickets are checked before boarding or after alighting.

In London at Bank Holidays, race meetings, sunny days etc can cause massive problems with passengers not allowed to board even with reservations/reserved seats.

 

"...not the northern end and on XC services." 

The Northern end is Aberdeen, Dundee, Edinburgh which have their own overcrowding  issues.

 

On the matter of the Timetable(which you introduced inaccurately)-pretty important if you are on Chesterfield station and you watch three trains stop and leave for your destination but you cannot get on. CrossCountry or EMR will not get any revenue from you if your ticket says NT or EMR(Leeds Nottingham) services only-qv Birmingham New Street to London service.

 

Much of Europe has tiered train system where long distance services have separate operators/owners/routes and often terminus to terminus, non or limited stop.

Passengers pay higher fares for these services, pay for a single reservation and are required to check in earlier.  

 

One of the biggest problems in this area was the chronic overcrowding on TPE services between Sheffield and Manchester. The reservation system was regularly abandoned because of the added delays it caused at Piccadilly. Also clever Airport users would reserve seats on several trains just in case their plane arrival was earl/late as would commuters travelling back from Piccadilly. Other passengers got used/so annoyed by this they  ignored the reservations.

This problem has been mainly resolved- Train lengths have been doubled and Northern introduced much cheaper Advance (no seat reservations) fares.

 

Another solution HS2.

 

"CrossCountry, as I have already said, described and explained in  #37, do this now. The reaction of their passengers has to say the least, been unpopular."

 

yes because it is not compulsory meaning that those who get on without a ticket suddenly find that their seat becomes booked and they have to move .  Unfortunately the way XC went about this shows a complete lack of brain The idea that a family of 4 find a nice bay at Derby and then get turfed out at Sheffield  and have to sit separately because someone booked the bay after it left Derby is mad but with a properly implemented scheme that family of 4 would have had to make a reservation and so would not have been kicked out.  Also such a policy would not be implemented overnight and would need communicating and the equipment provided

 

pretty important if you are on Chesterfield station and you watch three trains stop and leave for your destination but you cannot get on. CrossCountry or EMR will not get any revenue from you if your ticket says NT or EMR(Leeds Nottingham) services only-qv Birmingham New Street to London service.

 

If you ticket is restricted to the one train operator then there would be no change whatsoever the passenger would still have to wait for the correct train and watch the other operators 3 train stop and not be able to get on until the NT or whatever arrived. As far as I am aware there is no split of revenue on tickets that are restricted to one operator and that ORCATS operates on open tickets (ie can be used on any train or any reasonable route  and of course to allocate revenue when the journey involve two or more operators such as EML to Sheffield and NT on to Barnsley on the one ticket)

 

Yes TPE is a problem but as it is not an High Speed service (prior to  privatisation they did want to join the InterCity club but did not meet the criteria) and there would be no change at all and passenger free to stand

 

 

The Northern end is Aberdeen, Dundee, Edinburgh which have their own overcrowding  issues.

"I know all this falls into your too difficult category but rest assured it is straight forward. As I said the harder bits to solve are at the London end..." 

That is the easy bit -there is a barrier and tickets are checked before boarding or after alighting.

In London at Bank Holidays, race meetings, sunny days etc can cause massive problems with passengers not allowed to board even with reservations/reserved seats."

 

The reason why London is the hard bit is that that is where the overcrowding and standing is the biggest problem on the High speed services. Apart from when things have gone belly up overcrowding on the old InterCity services is not anywhere as near a problem at the "country end" whether it be Sheffield, leeds, Aberdeen .

[ECCOnoob 1,020]

Wouldn't the more appropriate comparator when talking about the subject be the difference between a bus and a coach.

 

They are both road vehicles and in theory, a person could travel on a coach a relatively short distance between two primary towns. Example there are plenty of coach routes that serve, say Barnsley to Meadowhall then to Sheffield then to Chesterfield etc...as part of a longer distance scheduled journey.

 

Now, the point is would a passenger simply expect to be able to walk onto a coach without a pre-booked ticket or reservation. Would they really just expect it to be the same sort of hop-on local style bus service.   If the answer is no, I don't really see why people would be so inconvenienced if they had to pre-book a seat reservation a few minutes before before boarding a long-distance intercity train service.

 

To me it's the same principle. Two distinct factors on the railways. One type is mass transit multiple stop freely available services for the commuter the other is limited stop longer distance pre-booked intercity services. 

 

Perhaps the real problem here is that there is too much reliance on the latter to serve the needs of the former. Maybe that is what really needs to change i.e. getting our rapid local commuter services up to a better standard.

Edited May 19, 2021 by ECCOnoob

[Annie Bynnol 612]

The benefit of the current reservation system is we have a choice of cost and choice of flexibility.

 

Travel to London

I may not know on what train I want to come back on so I can go unreserved or make a reservation and decide later if I want to use it or make several reservations or upgrade to first class.

This low tech system works and would only fail in the same circumstances as a high tech compulsory reservation system.

The ability to walk up and travel  on any train going my way is a great advantage to regular travellers.    

 

CrossCountry trains are used at different times as a short distance walk on  "bus" by some and a long distance "coach" at the same time at various points along the route. They are desperate to have to give the impression that they are doing something about commuters and shoppers are overcrowding their trains, but in reality making lots of money from full small trains which the Government will not allow to be bigger.

 

Please don't mention ORCATS, Open access operators,  Lead Operators and route fare setting etc., as it  is a nightmare and the upcoming changes (see edited and digestible content here Rail Delivery Group) are certain to offer carrots like reservation, tickets simplification and computery stuff in exchange for a significant price hike and the removal of some travel options.

 

 

 

[BigAl1 143]

22 hours ago, ECCOnoob said:

Wouldn't the more appropriate comparator when talking about the subject be the difference between a bus and a coach.

 

They are both road vehicles and in theory, a person could travel on a coach a relatively short distance between two primary towns. Example there are plenty of coach routes that serve, say Barnsley to Meadowhall then to Sheffield then to Chesterfield etc...as part of a longer distance scheduled journey.

 

Now, the point is would a passenger simply expect to be able to walk onto a coach without a pre-booked ticket or reservation. Would they really just expect it to be the same sort of hop-on local style bus service.   If the answer is no, I don't really see why people would be so inconvenienced if they had to pre-book a seat reservation a few minutes before before boarding a long-distance intercity train service.

 

To me it's the same principle. Two distinct factors on the railways. One type is mass transit multiple stop freely available services for the commuter the other is limited stop longer distance pre-booked intercity services. 

 

Perhaps the real problem here is that there is too much reliance on the latter to serve the needs of the former. Maybe that is what really needs to change i.e. getting our rapid local commuter services up to a better standard.

yes I agree with you but some people do not like change or see it as too difficult.  Mind you with today's announcement it will be interesting to see what happens

Edited May 20, 2021 by Bigal1

[BigAl1 143]

18 hours ago, Annie Bynnol said:

The benefit of the current reservation system is we have a choice of cost and choice of flexibility.

 

Travel to London

I may not know on what train I want to come back on so I can go unreserved or make a reservation and decide later if I want to use it or make several reservations or upgrade to first class.

This low tech system works and would only fail in the same circumstances as a high tech compulsory reservation system.

The ability to walk up and travel  on any train going my way is a great advantage to regular travellers.    

 

CrossCountry trains are used at different times as a short distance walk on  "bus" by some and a long distance "coach" at the same time at various points along the route. They are desperate to have to give the impression that they are doing something about commuters and shoppers are overcrowding their trains, but in reality making lots of money from full small trains which the Government will not allow to be bigger.

 

Please don't mention ORCATS, Open access operators,  Lead Operators and route fare setting etc., as it  is a nightmare and the upcoming changes (see edited and digestible content here Rail Delivery Group) are certain to offer carrots like reservation, tickets simplification and computery stuff in exchange for a significant price hike and the removal of some travel options.

 

 

 

I only mentioned ORCATS to correct what you had said

 

I can not remember the detail of the invitation to tender for the XC franchise and if it excluded the bidders from buying new trains but certainly they took over 5 sets of the IC125 running in a 2+7 formation and i always looked for these when heading to the west country

 

No one is dispute the flexibility that the current system offers but in many cases it comes at the expense of getting a seat and one could argue that it is selfish to reserve a seat you are not going to use - and yes I have been guilty of doing just that because the system allows it .

[S1 1DJ 11]

On 16/05/2021 at 13:14, S1 1DJ said:

 

 

Well, the rail system is a mess comparing to travelling elsewhere in Europe! Regardless of ownership or government it's clear that it's not fit for purpose.

I've travelled on many intercity trains that have been severely overcrowded and not acceptable for people travelling over a long-distance. I've always said what would happen if there was an accident with overcrowded trains running in excess of 100 miles per hour. This just doesn't happen elsewhere.

 

On 16/05/2021 at 15:08, Annie Bynnol said:

The safety record of passengers on Britains railways is unequalled by any major railway or transport system. It would be even better if everybody was locked into a seat for the whole of their journey- but is that practical?

 

Most European systems were rebuilt after 1945, some are the cause for national pride, some built new lines years ago and some continue to do so, some are cheaper, some are overcrowded, a  few are faster and most are slower.

 

My point is that our railway system is not fit for purpose and is not safe if running overcrowded high-speed Intercity trains.

I used the railways pre pandemic on a weekly basis the travel across the 3 nations mainly using hi speed services, so this is from a perspective as a user.

[Annie Bynnol 612]

The only high speed services in the UK is 140 mph allowed on purpose built HS1 track in Kent.

No railway passenger deaths have been attributed to over crowded train travelling at over 100mph.

 

When we have a network of HS2 trains  then seating will be compulsory.

 

Until then passengers will continue to be able to board a train on their platform which is going up the line to the next stop without making a reservation- or concerning themselves with what uniform the driver is wearing.

 

 

[BigAl1 143]

15 hours ago, Annie Bynnol said:

The only high speed services in the UK is 140 mph allowed on purpose built HS1 track in Kent.

No railway passenger deaths have been attributed to over crowded train travelling at over 100mph.

 

When we have a network of HS2 trains  then seating will be compulsory.

 

Until then passengers will continue to be able to board a train on their platform which is going up the line to the next stop without making a reservation- or concerning themselves with what uniform the driver is wearing.

 

 

No railway passenger deaths have been attributed to over crowded train travelling at over 100mph.

 

Not sure that there have been any crashes of overcrowded trains at over 100 mph in UK so your argument is fallacious. Just look at the Cannot Street crash back in 1991 when 277 passengers were injured seriously enough to be admitted to hospital and that was on a train traveling at between 5 and 10mph.

 

Until then passengers will continue to be able to board a train on their platform which is going up the line to the next stop without making a reservation- or concerning themselves with what uniform the driver is wearing.

 

really many tickets used by passengers are restricted to the services provided by one train company and are not valid on other services and of course others to the one train service only

[Annie Bynnol 612]

4 hours ago, Bigal1 said:

 

 

Not sure that there have been any crashes of overcrowded trains at over 100 mph in UK so your argument is fallacious. Just look at the Cannot Street crash back in 1991 when 277 passengers were injured seriously enough to be admitted to hospital and that was on a train traveling at between 5 and 10mph.

Please note that S1 1DJ made a valid point concerning the potential overcrowding on high speed trains and nothing to do with 60 year old carriages hitting the buffers at Cannon Street thirty years ago.

 

I have already pointed out that HS2 travel will require seat reservations.  The difference in our opinion was that I was not worried about high speed train crashes because of the lack of incidents and  survivability.

 

 

Quote

 

really many tickets used by passengers are restricted to the services provided by one train company and are not valid on other services and of course others to the one train service only

The vast majority of rail travellers are commuters making peak time journeys on routes operated by one Train Operating Company in an area dominated by one TOC.

On a route with more one TOC operating on a route, fares available at peak times(including season tickets) are set by one operator and by definition can be used on all services on that route. There are very few exceptions.