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So What's Neoliberalism?

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2 minutes ago, ECCOnoob said:

Yes we have heard it all before.

 

It's a lovely ideological philosophy but once again we have that thorny issue of practical reality. The same unanswered questions.

 

Who exactly is deciding what is fair?

 

What is being defined as a so-called decent welfare? We already are one of the top 5 biggest nations for government health expenditure last headline stats showing NHS budget of around £114 billion and a forecast figure on welfare expenditure amohbtong to over £200 billion. That's just government sectors let alone all the dozens of other sectors making up our public services.   Yet somehow, year on year people scream it's never enough. 

 

We then have the usual demands about so called "fair tax" as if it's all so simple  - but how do you  enforce companies to pay more tax when they are already paying what the law determines they have to pay? Make the laws stricter of course, but then theres the fallout when such companies decide somewhere else is cheaper and just up sticks and go? What then happens to investment, jobs, trade?   What about the then inevitable friction created by heavy handed government controls and interference with the principles of a globalised economy, market freedoms, consumer choice? 

 

How is even possible to create some ideological level playing field when there is such a clear discrepancy between the so called "poverty" wages pleaded by people who have the luxury of state funded accommodation, state mandated benefits, free healthcare, free education.....when those exact same amount of wages are seen as a small fortune to a different person in a different country without the additional luxury of top up government support? What do you think the consequences would be if someone took a broad brush approach to increase across the board?

 

It really isn't that simple.

 

We're seeing it already with Brexit - cheaper to up sticks and go to Europe with frictionless trade.................

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2 hours ago, El Cid said:

Well the Cameron Government promised a much higher minimum wage, they almost delivered it, so I guess you are almost happy.

The problem with any UK Government trying to please the masses with capitalism or socialism, is that we live in a international world, where some will think working for £2 per hour is good pay.

If you try to pay UK workers £20 per hour, they wont have a job, £10 per hour might just be ok.

You didn't watch the video then.

He explains why doubling the minimum wage would work.

Evidence of that is that It's already been tried, and has already worked.

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6 hours ago, Anna B said:

You didn't watch the video then.

He explains why doubling the minimum wage would work.

Evidence of that is that It's already been tried, and has already worked.

I watched some of it. Do you think the steep increase of the minimum wage of to now has helped?

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9 hours ago, El Cid said:

I watched some of it. Do you think the steep increase of the minimum wage of to now has helped?

First of all I think you need to watch all of it to get the full picture.

 

Re; minimum wage, it's all relative. Any increase must help, but currently the minimum wage works out at about £16,000 before tax for full time 52 weeks a year, assuming holiday pay is given etc. Still far below the average wage of about £27,000.

That doesn't take into account that many minimum wage jobs are insecure 0 hour jobs, and contract, gig economy work which doesn't pay for lunch, tea breaks etc or guarantee full time employment. There will still be many people on minimum wage that don't get that. And the cost of living in the UK is very expensive.

 

Many of the working poor still require government benefits and food banks to make ends meet, which surely can't be right.

Edited by Anna B

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32 minutes ago, Anna B said:

 There will still be many people on minimum wage that don't get that.

Perhaps if the minimum wage is seldom enforced, the likelyhood of it being doubled is zero. It has been said that our high minimum wage relative to other countries has attracted foreign labour here. If we increased the NMW by 50% and other countries did nothing, that effect would be made worse. People would be swimming the seas to get here.

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18 minutes ago, El Cid said:

Perhaps if the minimum wage is seldom enforced, the likelyhood of it being doubled is zero. It has been said that our high minimum wage relative to other countries has attracted foreign labour here. If we increased the NMW by 50% and other countries did nothing, that effect would be made worse. People would be swimming the seas to get here.

You raise an interesting point, but surely in the first instance, that's up to other government agencies to prevent.

 

However one of the good things about globalization is that it could be used to raise things like finances to more eqitable levels everywhere and generally mprove things  for people. That would increase markets so everyone including businesses would benefit. It won't happen of course, it will go into the pockets of the already wealthy. 

 

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How much do you think the minimum (or living) hourly rate should be?

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59 minutes ago, carosio said:

How much do you think the minimum (or living) hourly rate should be?

Enough to live on, pay bills, and buy essentials (including insurance which  will be necessary with everything being privatised,) and save a bit for pensions, rainy days and a bit of security etc. 

 

What that is these days, I don't know, but I'm sure it's more than the minimum and the living wage.

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25 minutes ago, Anna B said:

Enough to live on, pay bills, and buy essentials (including insurance which  will be necessary with everything being privatised,) and save a bit for pensions, rainy days and a bit of security etc. 

 

What that is these days, I don't know, but I'm sure it's more than the minimum and the living wage.

That is meaningless.

 

Everyone seems to be an expert on this subject.  There is all the chanting and protest and articles and studies and statistics and self righteous opinions who all demand "...it's not enough...."   "...Its poverty...."  "...It's a disgrace..."  "...its slave wage..."   This is despite the fact that NMW hourly rate for the majority of working adults has increased over the past decade by over 40%.   The most recent increase this year alone was over 6%

 

So. How much then? What levels do those demanding actually and realistically expect? At what point do such demands cross the line into risks of pricing themselves out of the market?

 

 

Edited by ECCOnoob

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Anna appears reticent to suggest a figure, bearing in mind that it ought to be a fundamental part of her admirable crusade for higher pay and a fairer society.

 

How about £12/hr, or is that too low?

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1 minute ago, carosio said:

Anna appears reticent to suggest a figure, bearing in mind that it ought to be a fundamental part of her admirable crusade for higher pay and a fairer society.

 

How about £12/hr, or is that too low?

If you're thinking of finally wiping out the high Street, I'd say that's about right. 

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Just to put a bit of real-world context to this debate. Taking an average full-time 25 + adult working current minimum wage the gross annual salary equates to just over £17,000 or roughly about £1,267 pounds per month after tax.

 

Even for those workers under 25 the most recent minimum rate equate to a take-home pay of between £1,020 and and £1,200 a month

 

Lower-income it may be... but poverty wage?

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