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So What's Neoliberalism?

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2 hours ago, tinfoilhat said:

ukip managed to achieve a tremendous amount with a few MEPs. 

 

But globalisation has clearly improved the lot of billions. Do you want the gap between us and the developing to remain as large as it was in the 50s and 60s?

British people had had a terrible time in the war but came out of it with an abundance of hope. The Labour government rewarded them with a new welfare state, promising to take care of them 'from the cradle to the grave.' This brought about the NHS, paid for with National Insurance contributions but free at the point of use This included free hospitals, free doctors and healthcare, dentistry and glasses, regular health checks and free milk, orange juice and vitamins for children. There was an emphasis on improving education with new methods, secondary schooling for all to 15 (pre war kids could leave school at 12) and free higher education and grants for living costs. There were improvements to working  conditions and practices enshrined in law. Better pensions, and help / benefits to cover sickness and unemployment, (although unemployment was considered shameful as there was plenty of work.) Workhouses were finally closed down and  elderly people unable to cope at home had the free services of health visitors and home helps, or could go and be cared for in free state run care homes. 

 

These changes truly transformed the lives of the working class beyond all recognition, and was arguably the greatest leap forward they had enjoyed in history. 

 

There is no reason why similar programmes could not be introduced in developing countries with the political will to do it, rather than the piecemeal approach of 'aid' and charity etc. They are victims of much mismanagement, and Imperial colonialism, but they are often rich in resources, however the issues are complicated and would need another thread to unravel, but I believe to have such poverty in these countries in the 21st century is simply unacceptable. 

 

It would probably look very different as conditions and problems vary and it would take time. China seems to have made rapid progress in helping its own people out of poverty, (there was mass starvation in the 60's) and they are also making headway in helping other developing countries out of poverty with new methods of their own. There is self interest in this no doubt, and we will have to await the long term results, but I personally believe it is possible, and is something we should all be working towards.

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36 minutes ago, Mister M said:

Hi Kelvin, I'd be interested in reading that, but the link you provided doesn't work

I just put the title 'Neoliberalism and postmodernism an unholy alliance' into google search and it came up.

Reading it now. 

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1 minute ago, Kelvin Phlats said:

Try googling this, 

The unholy alliance of neoliberalism and postmodernism Hans van Zon

 

It worked for me, it's the top answer.

Yep, sorry, that's it.

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37 minutes ago, Anna B said:

British people had had a terrible time in the war but came out of it with an abundance of hope. The Labour government rewarded them with a new welfare state, promising to take care of them 'from the cradle to the grave.' This brought about the NHS, paid for with National Insurance contributions but free at the point of use This included free hospitals, free doctors and healthcare, dentistry and glasses, regular health checks and free milk, orange juice and vitamins for children. There was an emphasis on improving education with new methods, secondary schooling for all to 15 (pre war kids could leave school at 12) and free higher education and grants for living costs. There were improvements to working  conditions and practices enshrined in law. Better pensions, and help / benefits to cover sickness and unemployment, (although unemployment was considered shameful as there was plenty of work.) Workhouses were finally closed down and  elderly people unable to cope at home had the free services of health visitors and home helps, or could go and be cared for in free state run care homes. 

 

These changes truly transformed the lives of the working class beyond all recognition, and was arguably the greatest leap forward they had enjoyed in history. 

 

Free this, free that, free the other....

 

It's not hard to see the origins of people generations on filled with entitlement syndrome.... The expanding numbers of people whom, without any genuine necessity, are perfectly happy to let others pay their lifestyle so they don't have to bother with all that tiresome work other mugs do..... The pockets of irresponsible parents who think it's perfectly acceptable to copulate, break up the relationship, disappear off the face of the Earth because hey never mind, the state looks after the kids for them.....

 

We are no longer in wartime. The pot smoking free love of the 60s is over. Population has exploded, the world has shrunk, business is globalised and those public services set up to support the nation and restore lives during times of genuine crisis have become totally wasteful, inefficient, overblown, taken for granted and abused by too many with no sense of responsibility for their actions.

 

They are all unfit for purpose and been bloated well beyond anything that could be deemed essential provision as anticipated in their origins. 

 

In my opinion the labour government post-war had absolutely no right to make such "promises". Support when one is on their uppers or for genuine medical/disability need is one thing but to declare all and everyone will be looked after from cradle to grave is another.

 

The world changes all the time. Things evolve.

 

Anyway, 5 pages in and I'm still without answer of specific reasons why neoliberalism is allegedly so bad. I've asked questions as to what exactly is wrong with its principles and what exactly is the workable and proven alternative which is so much better.  However, all I seem to be reading is multiple long winded commentary boiled down to.....we should all have voted Labour, Labour are the answer to fixing everything, Corbyn could have been our saviour and all who disagree are wrong. 

Edited by ECCOnoob

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53 minutes ago, ECCOnoob said:

Free this, free that, free the other....

 

It's not hard to see the origins of people generations on filled with entitlement syndrome.... The expanding numbers of people whom, without any genuine necessity, are perfectly happy to let others pay their lifestyle so they don't have to bother with all that tiresome work other mugs do..... The pockets of irresponsible parents who think it's perfectly acceptable to copulate, break up the relationship, disappear off the face of the Earth because hey never mind, the state looks after the kids for them.....

 

We are no longer in wartime. The pot smoking free love of the 60s is over. Population has exploded, the world has shrunk, business is globalised and those public services set up to support the nation and restore lives during times of genuine crisis have become totally wasteful, inefficient, overblown, taken for granted and abused by too many with no sense of responsibility for their actions.

 

They are all unfit for purpose and been bloated well beyond anything that could be deemed essential provision as anticipated in their origins. 

 

In my opinion the labour government post-war had absolutely no right to make such "promises". Support when one is on their uppers or for genuine medical/disability need is one thing but to declare all and everyone will be looked after from cradle to grave is another.

 

The world changes all the time. Things evolve.

 

Anyway, 5 pages in and I'm still without answer of specific reasons why neoliberalism is allegedly so bad. I've asked questions as to what exactly is wrong with its principles and what exactly is the workable and proven alternative which is so much better.  However, all I seem to be reading is multiple long winded commentary boiled down to.....we should all have voted Labour, Labour are the answer to fixing everything, Corbyn could have been our saviour and all who disagree are wrong. 

Free at the point of use. There's a big difference. Actually it's everybody looking after everybody else. Something to be admired I would have thought. 

 

What's wrong with neoliberalism? It's based on selfishness. It's all about greed, its the philosophy of the 'I'm all right Jack. so f...k you' brigade. 

 

The alternative is kindness, care and working together for the benefit of all.

 

Edited by Anna B

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13 minutes ago, Anna B said:

Free at the point of use. There's a big difference. Actually it's everybody looking after everybody else. Something to be admired I would have thought. 

What's wrong with neoliberalism? It's based on selfishness. It's all about greed, its the philosophy of the 'I'm all right Jack. so f...k you.'

Oh dear I think your prejudice is showing.... 

So just a load more generic nonsense then.

 

No comments on why exactly free trade and free commerce is such a bad thing. No comment on why there should controls on pricing.  No comment on why we should be restricted in our business practices and limited as to where and how we trade. No comment so why exactly freedom of choice to consumers is so bad. No comment on why exactly globalisation and ability to purchase goods and services from a range of locations is detrimental rather than a  benefit.  No comment as to why privatisation and competition of previously government owned monopoly isnt actually a good thing. No comment on why you feel it is preferred to have heavy-handed government control, dependency and interference in our  econonomic and personal lives. Still no actual comment as to what the credible and proven alternative is.

 

You disparaging mention my supposed prejudice but you were the one who made a point of starting this debate thread yet all you seem to have done is use it to make extremely blunt over simplistic points whilst ignoring any actual questions and challenges.

 

I think I'm pretty much done with this. I'm not convinced there was any intention to debate the substance of neoliberalism and it's just one of many long winded disguised threads pushing the same tired old arguments about how wonderful the failed left of Labour are. 

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1 hour ago, Kelvin Phlats said:

Try googling this, 

The unholy alliance of neoliberalism and postmodernism Hans van Zon

 

It worked for me, it's the top answer.

Thanks for that

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57 minutes ago, Anna B said:

Free at the point of use. There's a big difference. Actually it's everybody looking after everybody else. Something to be admired I would have thought. 

 

What's wrong with neoliberalism? It's based on selfishness. It's all about greed, its the philosophy of the 'I'm all right Jack. so f...k you' brigade. 

 

The alternative is kindness, care and working together for the benefit of all.

 

 

31 minutes ago, ECCOnoob said:

So just a load more generic nonsense then.

 

No comments on why exactly free trade and free commerce is such a bad thing. No comment on why there should controls on pricing.  No comment on why we should be restricted in our business practices and limited as to where and how we trade. No comment so why exactly freedom of choice to consumers is so bad. No comment on why exactly globalisation and ability to purchase goods and services from a range of locations is detrimental rather than a  benefit.  No comment as to why privatisation and competition of previously government owned monopoly isnt actually a good thing. No comment on why you feel it is preferred to have heavy-handed government control, dependency and interference in our  econonomic and personal lives. Still no actual comment as to what the credible and proven alternative is.

 

You disparaging mention my supposed prejudice but you were the one who made a point of starting this debate thread yet all you seem to have done is use it to make extremely blunt over simplistic points whilst ignoring any actual questions and challenges.

 

I think I'm pretty much done with this. I'm not convinced there was any intention to debate the substance of neoliberalism and it's just one of many long winded disguised threads pushing the same tired old arguments about how wonderful the failed left of Labour are. 

My understanding, and I want to do more reading on the subject, is that free markets and neo liberalism are not interchangeable, and there are differences between the two.

I think Anna you've fallen into the trap of binary opposites - everything wrong in society is down to neo liberalism, and the grass is greener on the other side. I just don't think it's a simplistic as that

In the last few years the failure of neoliberalism has been acknowledged from previous stalwarts of that school of thought from organisations like the IMF, OECD and powerful individuals like Alan Greenspan. Interestingly, they came to their acknowledgments after the 2008 credit crunch.

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This is more than just an interesting thread if you take it seriously it's actually VERY  scary!

A while back i chanced across an off the cuff comment by Naom Chomsky who said it was neither "neo" or "liberal" which seems a clear indication of the old political ploy of engaging in verbal camouflage so that nobody picks up on the truth until it's too late! By which I mean they seek a fait accompli  - Whilst on a different level if you look below the surface of right wing middle class/ Tory politicians very often they seek to appear as if they are rational & thus we should agree with their point of view as they are "logical".

But as far as I'm concerned you can build THE most impressive  shining  "ivory towers" of logic & NONE  of it means a damn thing until it's reality tested ! If you are aware of MULTI ORDINALITY,  the fact that words have multiple definitions ( which is why we have dictionaries ) & look up "rational" then I suggest that one of the definitions is the most appropriate for such politicians i.e. rationalisation in the sense of an intellectual lie! Which I suggest far too many politicians are far too practiced @ !

 As we still seem @ a stage here where we have some difficulty in identifying & defining the problem ( which I see as a deliberate ploy by these unscrupulous politicians - corporations-bankers who seem to have an incestuously close relationship ! ) i came across a book a while back & finally got round to reading -

 

                           "AUSTERITY   The DEMOLITION of the WELFARE STATE and the RISE of the ZOMBIE ECONOMY"

 

by KERRY-ANNE MENDOZA    ISBN   978-1-78026-246-8  Published by New Internationalist/newint.org  Paperback 9'99 GBP

( First published in 2015 & she was talking of writing a follow up so that might be out by now? )

 So to draw away the blind  fold covering our eyes according to Kerry - Anne ( who does a blog called "Scriptonite Daily" )

 what is called "Neo Liberalism" is actually  CORPORATE FASCISM where their ultimate intention is to PRIVATISE THE ENTIRE PLANET !

   Given the recent problems in America where the Barons of Silicon Valley have applied blanket censorship on those on Twitter/Instagram/Facebook/etc whose opinions they don't like (inc. Trump ) given that level of obsession with power it seems to me we have a few too many psychopaths on the loose!

 While this may initially seem to be straying from the point it's not ( as rather than sticking to symptoms/effects as most do I understand perfectly well little will be solved until we correct the Original /Primary cause - for if we succeed in that then the effects will "wither on the vine" 

  So here's the classic example from the 20th century where the "great" dictators Adolf Hitler/Joseph Stalin/Mao Zedong & Pol Pot caused World Wars/Holocaust & deliberate famine etc. Apart from being mass murderers the one other thing they all shared - & this is NO random coincidence in that they were all abused children *( & THE reason why the state of THE HUMAN CONDITION  continues to be so toxic is that while kids are born "hard wired" to be sociable & democratic is that 90% fail to get the democratic style of parenting they both need & deserve so usually become adult -children full of repressed anger. Having failed to overcome their problems they parent their kids just as they were & thus each generation screws up the next one & so it has been for countless millennia ! ) * who in order to protect themselves from their abusive relatives shut down emotionally & sought power to protect themselves i.e. they became psychopaths (read THE child psychologist ALICE MILLER ) . So THE big lesson we have failed to learn from the last century is NEVER EVER  give power to a psychopath ! ! ! !  - Though sadly it seems in the West in this century we have failed to learn that lesson as i can think of @ least two psychopaths voted into power ! - Which isn't that surprising as we are all quite deliberately "dumbed down" by the corrupt political system rigging the conventional education system to keep us stupid! - After all the last thing corrupt & incompetent politicians want is a population intelligent enough to be no longer abused by their mind games!

  BTW  i have a taste for good quality sci fi where they take a present social problem , run it forward into a dystopic future, exaggerate it to make it more obvious & let us work it out for ourselves. now if we look @ the sci fi film trilogy "Matrix, in particular the sub plot of Pt.1 ( you can safely ignore Pts @ & 3 as they are only average! ) where the robots enslave mankind &the main weapon they use is holographic projectors to create the illusion of normality ( & our illusion of normality is having a species where 90% are dysfunctional because of toxic parenting & assuming we are healthy! )

  While our present holographic technology isn't up to the level of the film, the old ways still work - 'dumb down" the education system & the press & media mainly re-issue the lies & propaganda of whatever corrupt government we are saddled with! Whatever way you look @ it, it still comes down to 

 

                                                              

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1 hour ago, ECCOnoob said:

So just a load more generic nonsense then.

 

No comments on why exactly free trade and free commerce is such a bad thing. No comment on why there should controls on pricing.  No comment on why we should be restricted in our business practices and limited as to where and how we trade. No comment so why exactly freedom of choice to consumers is so bad. No comment on why exactly globalisation and ability to purchase goods and services from a range of locations is detrimental rather than a  benefit.  No comment as to why privatisation and competition of previously government owned monopoly isnt actually a good thing. No comment on why you feel it is preferred to have heavy-handed government control, dependency and interference in our  econonomic and personal lives. Still no actual comment as to what the credible and proven alternative is.

 

You disparaging mention my supposed prejudice but you were the one who made a point of starting this debate thread yet all you seem to have done is use it to make extremely blunt over simplistic points whilst ignoring any actual questions and challenges.

 

I think I'm pretty much done with this. I'm not convinced there was any intention to debate the substance of neoliberalism and it's just one of many long winded disguised threads pushing the same tired old arguments about how wonderful the failed left of Labour are. 

I apologise for my prejudice comment. That's why I deleted it. I try very hard not to get personal but I was angry, but then I guess so were you, and Kelvin is right and there's no excuse, so sorry. 

 

Edited by Anna B

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10 minutes ago, tinfoilhat said:

Very sad pictures. But I think the point is that prior to the welfare state people living in those sort of  circumstances were commonplace whereas afterwards there were far fewer, and people's prospects had greatly improved. 

 

 

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