Another Knife Attack In France

[L00b 441]

2 hours ago, Ridgewalk said:

I suppose my point is that French society seems to require a homogeneity of being and behaving and doesn't appear to have the flexibility of a modern progressive liberal democracy. In order to be a good French citizen you must shake off all forms of identity and just be French. As an atheist I welcome laïcité and separation of church and state, but it doesn't seem to equip France with an ability to accept diversity. I've given you two concrete examples of how diversity ( a dirty word for the extreme right and nationalists) isn't respected but you've not referenced them at all in your replies. 

 

Il not sure how you construe from what I've said that I'm defending hardline radical Islam other than to take a cheap shot.

 

i suppose multiculturalism works for all in France like free market capitalism works for all wealthy people. Depends what you mean by " works". Unemployment, exclusion, poverty, crime etc in the poorer areas of cities like Marseille and Paris is endemic amongst the ethnic minority population who by French thinking all enjoy equal rights. It's no surprise that a lot of the perpetrators of these lunatic  atrocities are radicalised whilst serving prison sentences for drug dealing and other crimes and end up seeking an identity that is at odds with French society. 

 

I'm not French, unlike yourself,  but spend enough time there to realise that racism is endemic, in my opinion much more than in UK. 

Your point is odd, for someone who supposedly spent enough time there. It is valid, insofar as laicity is concerned: that secularism is drummed into everyone from birth, hardest of all throughout formative school years, and has been for generations (later-day terrorists like today's are not homegrown, they are recent arrivals who didn't go through these cultural formative years in France). It is invalid in respect of individuality, be it behavioural or 'being'. It is a shared cultural norm (one might even go so so far as to call it an article of faith, but not teological - if that makes sense).

 

I'm not saying that you are defending hardline radical islam. I've clearly given you the benefit of the doubt in that respect:  note the use of 'If' in my post.

 

I'm not blind to xenophobia in France, either: I use the exact same debating shortcuts and broadbrushing that you do, in proportion, in counter-argument. When you decide to nuance  your points further, I will happily reciprocate.

 

As for racism being endemic in France, and more so than in the UK, clearly the last 5 years and crumbs must have passed you by. France didn't elect LePen (again) and didn't Frexit over (unfounded fears about-) immigration. Have you seen the look of your government's BNP-worthy rethoric and Patel's serial immigration policy attempts, lately? As a country, currently, you really have no lessons to give in that respect.

Edited October 29, 2020 by L00b

[Flanker7 20]

5 hours ago, L00b said:

.....................The hardline side of Islam is running smack against anticlericalist  principles of the French Republic. .....................................................

You've got it in one. France has got some real problems sorting this one out.

During the French Revolution the slaughter of the aristo's and their supporters was almost always followed by burning the churches down as they were seen as part and parcel of the corrupt regime. Today thie below applies to all religions.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_law_on_secularity_and_conspicuous_religious_symbols_in_schools

The full title of the law is "loi n^o 2004-228 du 15 mars 2004 encadrant, en application du principe de laïcité, le port de signes ou de tenues manifestant une appartenance religieuse dans les écoles, collèges et lycées publics" (literally "Law #2004-228 of March 15, 2004, concerning, as an application of the principle of the separation of church and state, the wearing of symbols or garb which show religious affiliation in public primary and secondary schools").

 

[Ridgewalk 97]

12 hours ago, L00b said:

Your point is odd, for someone who supposedly spent enough time there. It is valid, insofar as laicity is concerned: that secularism is drummed into everyone from birth, hardest of all throughout formative school years, and has been for generations (later-day terrorists like today's are not homegrown, they are recent arrivals who didn't go through these cultural formative years in France). It is invalid in respect of individuality, be it behavioural or 'being'. It is a shared cultural norm (one might even go so so far as to call it an article of faith, but not teological - if that makes sense).

 

I'm not saying that you are defending hardline radical islam. I've clearly given you the benefit of the doubt in that respect:  note the use of 'If' in my post.

 

I'm not blind to xenophobia in France, either: I use the exact same debating shortcuts and broadbrushing that you do, in proportion, in counter-argument. When you decide to nuance  your points further, I will happily reciprocate.

 

As for racism being endemic in France, and more so than in the UK, clearly the last 5 years and crumbs must have passed you by. France didn't elect LePen (again) and didn't Frexit over (unfounded fears about-) immigration. Have you seen the look of your government's BNP-worthy rethoric and Patel's serial immigration policy attempts, lately? As a country, currently, you really have no lessons to give in that respect.

 

12 hours ago, Flanker7 said:

You've got it in one. France has got some real problems sorting this one out.

During the French Revolution the slaughter of the aristo's and their supporters was almost always followed by burning the churches down as they were seen as part and parcel of the corrupt regime. Today thie below applies to all religions.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_law_on_secularity_and_conspicuous_religious_symbols_in_schools

The full title of the law is "loi n^o 2004-228 du 15 mars 2004 encadrant, en application du principe de laïcité, le port de signes ou de tenues manifestant une appartenance religieuse dans les écoles, collèges et lycées publics" (literally "Law #2004-228 of March 15, 2004, concerning, as an application of the principle of the separation of church and state, the wearing of symbols or garb which show religious affiliation in public primary and secondary schools").

 

Loob the Chechen immigrant who killed the teacher arrived in France aged 5, he therefore went through the whole gamut of the education system. A point Dominique Schnapper , advisor to the French government on secularism in education conceded in an interview on BBC Hardtalk the other day, watch it you may learn something. 

You point out Le Pens failure to be elected President as evidence France isn't racist and compare that with the failure of the BNP in UK. Are you being serious ?

 

Again you're saying " your government ". Do I really sound like someone who'd vote Tory ? 

 

 

[L00b 441]

41 minutes ago, Ridgewalk said:

 

Loob the Chechen immigrant who killed the teacher arrived in France aged 5, he therefore went through the whole gamut of the education system.

The Tunisian in Nice yesterday did not.

The Pakistani in Paris last September did not.

The Sudanese in Romans last April did not.

(etc)

41 minutes ago, Ridgewalk said:

You point out Le Pens failure to be elected President as evidence France isn't racist and compare that with the failure of the BNP in UK. Are you being serious ?

You post that disingenuous strawman, and then ask me if I'm serious? 

 

I have as much distaste for hard left apologists as for hard right racists. So try your uninformed rethoric on someone else: I'm not interested.

 

Edited October 30, 2020 by L00b

[frigate 10]

https://au.news.yahoo.com/malaysian-ex-pm-mahathir-says-131421297.html

 

 

 

"Mahathir Mohamad, Malaysia’s two-time former prime minister, has claimed Muslims have a right to “kill millions of French people for the massacres of the past” in a Twitter thread posted just hours after a Muslim man killed three people outside a church in Nice." 

 

 within two hours of that Twitter thread being posted, tens of thousands had re-posted it. 
He also goes on to criticise and describe many women in the West as "totally naked when on certain beaches." Yes, that's what freedom of expression is all about. We may not always like it but we defend those who choose to ignore the threat of skin cancer. As we defend satirical cartoons depicting Allah. Watch The Life of Brian sometime. It's sacrilegious but few of us would condemn it. Or seek to punish the members of Monty Python. That would be insane wouldn't it? 

 

 

[Martin C 81]

The gentleman quoted is clearly mentally retarded/deluded and as such should be ignored by every person with a functioning brain.

[Ridgewalk 97]

21 hours ago, L00b said:

The Tunisian in Nice yesterday did not.

The Pakistani in Paris last September did not.

The Sudanese in Romans last April did not.

(etc)

You post that disingenuous strawman, and then ask me if I'm serious? 

 

I have as much distaste for hard left apologists as for hard right racists. So try your uninformed rethoric on someone else: I'm not interested.

 

Mohamed Merah born and bred Toulouse.

 

Said  Kouachi

Cherif Kouachi  Charlie Hebdo killers, 

born Paris

 

The BNP are irrelevant as an electoral force, whereas Le Pen got to the second round in the Presidential election. Macron is adopting the language of the hard right like Theresa May as Home Secretary, and the Tories, which happened after UKIP got 6 million votes in 2019 and were a threat to Cameron's search for a majority.

 

What's a " hard left apologist" ?

 

vive La France

Edited October 31, 2020 by Ridgewalk
...

[frigate 10]

10 hours ago, Martin C said:

The gentleman quoted is clearly mentally retarded/deluded and as such should be ignored by every person with a functioning brain.

jihadists,wahibists ,Islamofascis  all have functioning brains   and they don't  ignore  this  gentleman

[butlers 259]

Priest shot in Lyon

Injured but alive

[frigate 10]

On 01/11/2020 at 04:17, butlers said:

Priest shot in Lyon

Injured but alive

 

Did someone release another cartoon?. Time for a candlelight vigil, folks.And the flowers.  That always sorts it out

 

Edited November 3, 2020 by frigate

[frigate 10]

 

 

Gunmen armed with rifles have opened fire in six different locations in central Vienna, killing three people and wounding several more, police say.

Edited November 3, 2020 by frigate

[Baron99 778]

In the light of the Nice terrorist killings & France's spat with Turkey, I was watching Macron being interviewed on Al-Jazeerra, yesterday. 

 

Macron was settling out the relationship of the French Republic's secular stance in regards to religion.  He pointed out that while France is a secular nation, that doesn't mean they are intolerant of any religion.  Far from it.  They protect the rights of their citizens to practice whatever religion they choose. 

 

However, religious rights do not trump the rights of the Republic or the rights of the citizens of the Republic & that freedom to practice religion, must not be at the expense of surpressing the right of any citizens' rights to freedom of expression or freedom of speech, including the right to criticise a religion. 

 

Macron also stated that unlike countries such as the UK, France is NOT a multicultural society but a society of French Republican citizens & while it welcomes many people from around the world, those settling in France should remember this.  

Edited November 3, 2020 by Baron99