Mass Homelessness Soon?

[Westie1889 0]

I honestly don’t really understand who people are referring too when they describe ‘the working class’ these days as it seems to bracket everyone within that group as hard done too and struggling financially which I don’t think is true.

I grew up near Worksop in a working class family and most friends families were miners.

Some went to Uni and did well in their careers, others went down the route of getting a trade and working for themselves which has provided most of them with a comfortable lifestyle.

Is a tradesman from this background earning £40-£50k working class? They certainly aren’t in any hardship.

Also they have pushed the Uni option for their kids in a way their parents didn’t for them and the loans scheme means it’s accessible for all (albeit debt) and more kids from poorer homes are going to Uni than ever before.

One friends son has graduated with a PHD in Chemistry and his brother a Masters in the same subject, their grandads both worked down the pit.

I think the old terms around the class system are almost irrelevant these days. Yes there is a tiny elite at the top based on wealth, but even some of them are from working class backgrounds.

And there is also a group at the bottom who are disadvantaged, low pay/poor education and high house prices being a key reason for this.

But for the rest there is a high degree of social

mobility possible for the reasons I describe above, and that’s why we keep getting the type of governments we vote for.

If the majority of the working class were struggling in the way that has been described Labour would have a landslide every election, but they don’t.

I was amazed Worksop (and Bassetlaw) voted in a Tory MP last year. There were lots of reasons including the abuse a well liked and hard working MP was getting from some within his own party and also Brexit.

But people also didn’t like Labours message around identity politics. If you continually tell

people they are downtrodden and have no hope but their circumstances are very different to that they won’t identify and therefore vote for you.

The definition of middle class is ‘University educated and/or middle management’ but in political terms I think parties need to look at earnings if they want to bracket people, the old terms around class seem pretty much irrelevant now to much of the population.

 

 

[Anna B 1,414]

On 06/11/2020 at 02:59, Westie1889 said:

I honestly don’t really understand who people are referring too when they describe ‘the working class’ these days as it seems to bracket everyone within that group as hard done too and struggling financially which I don’t think is true.

I grew up near Worksop in a working class family and most friends families were miners.

Some went to Uni and did well in their careers, others went down the route of getting a trade and working for themselves which has provided most of them with a comfortable lifestyle.

Is a tradesman from this background earning £40-£50k working class? They certainly aren’t in any hardship.

Also they have pushed the Uni option for their kids in a way their parents didn’t for them and the loans scheme means it’s accessible for all (albeit debt) and more kids from poorer homes are going to Uni than ever before.

One friends son has graduated with a PHD in Chemistry and his brother a Masters in the same subject, their grandads both worked down the pit.

I think the old terms around the class system are almost irrelevant these days. Yes there is a tiny elite at the top based on wealth, but even some of them are from working class backgrounds.

And there is also a group at the bottom who are disadvantaged, low pay/poor education and high house prices being a key reason for this.

But for the rest there is a high degree of social

mobility possible for the reasons I describe above, and that’s why we keep getting the type of governments we vote for.

If the majority of the working class were struggling in the way that has been described Labour would have a landslide every election, but they don’t.

I was amazed Worksop (and Bassetlaw) voted in a Tory MP last year. There were lots of reasons including the abuse a well liked and hard working MP was getting from some within his own party and also Brexit.

But people also didn’t like Labours message around identity politics. If you continually tell

people they are downtrodden and have no hope but their circumstances are very different to that they won’t identify and therefore vote for you.

The definition of middle class is ‘University educated and/or middle management’ but in political terms I think parties need to look at earnings if they want to bracket people, the old terms around class seem pretty much irrelevant now to much of the population.

 

 

I don't think it's just income that decides class, but power and influence. 

Only 7% of the population went to private schools, but they hold nearly 50% of the top jobs. This kind of elitism separates them from 'the workers' and they become more divorced from the realities of every day life, but have the power to decide what happens to them via politics etc. That means they can maintain 'closed shops' at the top for people like themselves.

 

I grew up in the 50s and 60s and really believed you could do anything; 'the sky's the limit' thinking. And to a certain extent it was true. It was a time of more social mobility than we'd ever known, especially with free higher education and full employment. I thought it would last for ever, but sadly it was not to be. If you're in a steady well paid job, hang on to it, because they're becoming rarer and rarer. They are being eroded by circumstances and successive governments. 

 

The current younger generation is struggling on all fronts. Even with a University education the jobs are simply not there, and those that are, are often dependent on 'knowing someone' who can give you a leg up. Without contacts, or the right 'networking' group it's very hard for people to break into certain professions, and practices like internships (working for no pay) are unaffordable to many for whom an income is a necessity. 

House prices have made home ownership impossible in certain parts of the country, and even renting is outside the purse of many young people, so places like London, the hub of so many things, is not an option.  

Edited November 10, 2020 by Anna B

[Westie1889 0]

I agree that income alone doesn’t determine class, it was more that people who were born and therefore feel working class often have more

middle-class leaning views and aspirations as they have decent incomes due to the reasons I mentioned above.

In terms of ‘top jobs’ and private education I get it in certain sectors such as the civil service and to some degree Finance but for many other industries it’s not an issue.

A friend who used to work high-up in government told me the main reason the North lacks investment was not government policy but the power of civil servants within the Treasury who take a London-centric service sector view and would not even discuss manufacturing opportunities elsewhere, so this backs up your comments about where the power lies.

I do think things have changed massively in terms of opportunities and social mobility though for many but not all of people from historically working class backgrounds.

There are 5 times as many people going to University now than before Student loans began, this is a huge driver of social mobility moving millions of people into the middle-class.

A degree doesn’t mean you then automatically get a good job opportunity but there are far more of these types of job available in the service sector than would have been in traditional manufacturing in previous decades.

Businesses need good people and in general we have quite severe skills shortages in many industries in the UK, the jobs are there (pre-Covid) but we could do a better job of linking job opportunities with career advice to ensure people are getting the best qualifications.

Too many people take general degrees rather than specifics like engineering or I.T.

Many large international businesses now see diversity as not only morally right but also commercially desirable as it gives better results.

I work for a large global business based in London, they now tend to prefer non-privately educated kids at graduate level as we have found they are generally more mature and emotionally robust in a business that has a lot of tough face to face negotiations.

As a result of this they have turned away from the blue chip University’s as a source of graduates.

3 of this years graduate intake are kids from
Sheffield comprehensives which was great to see as it’s a really tough program to get into.

I do think there is then another group who are at the other end of the scale in terms of poor opportunities and low wages that are a real concern. Gone are the days where you can leave school with no qualifications and expect to get a decent paid job and I think this is probably the key difference to the 60’s and 70’s.

Its a tough thing to resolve, the educational system and government need to do more to catch this group at an early stage to stop them falling through the net. Careers advice should be pretty blunt showing them what type of working life awaits them and how to avoid that fate through whatever form of education suits them best.

The only other option is to reduce the supply of un-skilled labour to force wages up. Brexit may have done this to a degree but obviously Covid will have a massive effect now with lots golf people unemployed.

To summarise, I agree to an extent with what you say but I am probably more optimistic about the opportunities that are out there now based on my experiences and those of friends.

As I said earlier I went to a really crap Comp in Worksop in the 80’s, but looking at where a lot of those people are now it shows how much social

mobility there is. Also I think the opportunities are even greater now but you need to know what they are and how to get there and that’s a big barrier for some people.

 

[spider1 11]

On 05/10/2020 at 18:56, probedb said:

Mostly due to people being unable to sell in lockdown for one thing, With the new regulations in place it seems estate agents have a backlog of houses to sell/value so the housing market is rather busy right now.

Yes plenty of houses to let on market its the climate and people cant afford to rent and buy to let landlords are getting  stung so they are selling as its not worth it no more  soon be like america buy to lets will be big blocks of flats all livng together like rats  you can see it coming cant you sorry but i cant see no solution whats going on 

[Anna B 1,414]

7 hours ago, Westie1889 said:

I agree that income alone doesn’t determine class, it was more that people who were born and therefore feel working class often have more

middle-class leaning views and aspirations as they have decent incomes due to the reasons I mentioned above.

In terms of ‘top jobs’ and private education I get it in certain sectors such as the civil service and to some degree Finance but for many other industries it’s not an issue.

A friend who used to work high-up in government told me the main reason the North lacks investment was not government policy but the power of civil servants within the Treasury who take a London-centric service sector view and would not even discuss manufacturing opportunities elsewhere, so this backs up your comments about where the power lies.

I do think things have changed massively in terms of opportunities and social mobility though for many but not all of people from historically working class backgrounds.

There are 5 times as many people going to University now than before Student loans began, this is a huge driver of social mobility moving millions of people into the middle-class.

A degree doesn’t mean you then automatically get a good job opportunity but there are far more of these types of job available in the service sector than would have been in traditional manufacturing in previous decades.

Businesses need good people and in general we have quite severe skills shortages in many industries in the UK, the jobs are there (pre-Covid) but we could do a better job of linking job opportunities with career advice to ensure people are getting the best qualifications.

Too many people take general degrees rather than specifics like engineering or I.T.

Many large international businesses now see diversity as not only morally right but also commercially desirable as it gives better results.

I work for a large global business based in London, they now tend to prefer non-privately educated kids at graduate level as we have found they are generally more mature and emotionally robust in a business that has a lot of tough face to face negotiations.

As a result of this they have turned away from the blue chip University’s as a source of graduates.

3 of this years graduate intake are kids from
Sheffield comprehensives which was great to see as it’s a really tough program to get into.

I do think there is then another group who are at the other end of the scale in terms of poor opportunities and low wages that are a real concern. Gone are the days where you can leave school with no qualifications and expect to get a decent paid job and I think this is probably the key difference to the 60’s and 70’s.

Its a tough thing to resolve, the educational system and government need to do more to catch this group at an early stage to stop them falling through the net. Careers advice should be pretty blunt showing them what type of working life awaits them and how to avoid that fate through whatever form of education suits them best.

The only other option is to reduce the supply of un-skilled labour to force wages up. Brexit may have done this to a degree but obviously Covid will have a massive effect now with lots golf people unemployed.

To summarise, I agree to an extent with what you say but I am probably more optimistic about the opportunities that are out there now based on my experiences and those of friends.

As I said earlier I went to a really crap Comp in Worksop in the 80’s, but looking at where a lot of those people are now it shows how much social

mobility there is. Also I think the opportunities are even greater now but you need to know what they are and how to get there and that’s a big barrier for some people.

 

If the pandemic has taught us anything, it's the importance of the 'lowly' workers who have kept this country running during lockdown; the shop workers,  delivery drivers, bin men, care workers etc. usually amongst the lowest paid and hardest working of the lot.

These are essential jobs that we cannot manage without, and that makes them important. They should be entitled to a decent level of wages, working conditions and job security befitting their role. Most of all they need a carreer ladder they can climb should they wish to.  

 

The gap in the income of those at the bottom and those at the top is outragious and should be addressed urgently. 

[Jim117 72]

Hi all, just to comment on the North/South divide. Just before Covid hit I had dealings with a professional lady from Essex. She was a very smart lass with 35 years of experience and held quite a high position in her organisation. She drove up to Sheffield to meet up. She freely admitted that she was ignorant of the country outside the M25 and she actually thought she was in North Yorkshire. She was then even more surprised when she had to drive to Richmond about the size of the county. I think this perfectly illustrates the lack of understanding even smart people around London have regarding the rest of the country . I also think this is the reason for the level of shock and disbelief when things don’t go as expected,eg: Brexit and the election results. London exists in its own echo chamber, doesn’t canvass the opinion of the rest of the country then is surprised when the outcome doesn’t go as assumed.

[Westie1889 0]

2 hours ago, Anna B said:

If the pandemic has taught us anything, it's the importance of the 'lowly' workers who have kept this country running during lockdown; the shop workers,  delivery drivers, bin men, care workers etc. usually amongst the lowest paid and hardest working of the lot.

These are essential jobs that we cannot manage without, and that makes them important. They should be entitled to a decent level of wages, working conditions and job security befitting their role. Most of all they need a carreer ladder they can climb should they wish to.  

 

The gap in the income of those at the bottom and those at the top is outragious and should be addressed urgently. 

Couldn’t agree more on this point, no one should work full time and not be able to afford to live, it’s nonsensical.

We need a shortage of workers to make businesses invest in wages, training and development, the figures show it’s fallen massively in the last 15 years.

A high wage - high skilled economy as opposed to a low wage - low skilled economy.

[Guest busdriver1]

15 hours ago, Jim117 said:

Hi all, just to comment on the North/South divide. Just before Covid hit I had dealings with a professional lady from Essex. She was a very smart lass with 35 years of experience and held quite a high position in her organisation. She drove up to Sheffield to meet up. She freely admitted that she was ignorant of the country outside the M25 and she actually thought she was in North Yorkshire. She was then even more surprised when she had to drive to Richmond about the size of the county. I think this perfectly illustrates the lack of understanding even smart people around London have regarding the rest of the country .

I think we can quite easily reverse that situation. How many People from this area know where Godalming or Harpenden are?  How many are aware of the issues of living in a massive metropolis like Greater London?  I have lived in both areas and can say that both areas have plusses and minuses. Ignorance of other areas is very common in both, and in my opinion slightly more justified in the South East where there is virtually everything you could need on your doorstep, The minuses are there though if we look closely. One that comes up often is the differences in local transport provision. Greater London is not that different in size to South Yorkshire but has approximately twice the population to fund that transport. To have a similar setup in South Yorkshire would therefore require a massive hike in subsidy's to gain the same level of service  and remember that Londons population nearly doubles with commuters all of whom fund the transport through higher than average fares. Then take into account that Londons Transport system is haemorrhaging  money. yes its great to have virtual on demand buses and tubes but the cost is astronomical. In return, our roads are much quieter in comparison and make car ownership more viable. Let me stay here with the current public transport. be careful what you wish for, the grass is not always greener on the other side. People here complain about areas like page Hall, try looking at some of the London suburbs, they make page hall look very leafy and desirable.

15 hours ago, Westie1889 said:

Couldn’t agree more on this point, no one should work full time and not be able to afford to live, it’s nonsensical.

We need a shortage of workers to make businesses invest in wages, training and development, the figures show it’s fallen massively in the last 15 years.

A high wage - high skilled economy as opposed to a low wage - low skilled economy.

To a degree yes, but, the higher wages get passed on resulting in higher prices and reduced real spending power.

At the end of the day there are some jobs that are just simply low wage jobs come what may. 

[ECCOnoob 1,041]

20 hours ago, Anna B said:

If the pandemic has taught us anything, it's the importance of the 'lowly' workers who have kept this country running during lockdown; the shop workers,  delivery drivers, bin men, care workers etc. usually amongst the lowest paid and hardest working of the lot.

These are essential jobs that we cannot manage without, and that makes them important. They should be entitled to a decent level of wages, working conditions and job security befitting their role. Most of all they need a carreer ladder they can climb should they wish to.  

 

The gap in the income of those at the bottom and those at the top is outragious and should be addressed urgently. 

They have a career ladder they can climb just like anybody else does.

 

There is nothing stopping those essential shop workers, warehouse operatives, care workers or delivery drivers from pushing for promotion, doing the necessary training to get qualified and working their way up to become supervisors or managers even a company director if they so wish.

 

There are plenty of stories of the life of that Saturday girl behind the till who eventually became the big cheese, earning the big bucks, in the big office.  

 

There are plenty of articles about that "bloke down the market" who develops into owning a multi-billion pound international conglomerate  business.

 

Does everyone have these opportunities? No of course not. There will always be those that miss out either through personal choice or reasons beyond their control which prevents them from taking such steps.......but that is part of life.

 

Nobody said it's easy and nobody is owed a living.  Like I've said before, it's about looking after number one. We all forge our own path in this world and employment is no different.

 

Essential jobs are of course important but whether we like to admit it or not  the fact is people are paid for what their skills, qualifications, rarity and sellable value is worth.

 

It's all well and good saying that delivery workers, shop workers and carers etc are essential but if there is a queue of people with exactly the same level of skill, competence and training to do the job should one ever be replaced, that clearly is going to have limits on what level of pay such job role attracts. 

 

Bottom line is the more skilled or qualified or complex the job role the more someone gets paid. The more rare, sellable or asset a person is the more they can demand they get paid.

 

It's just business. The harsh reality is employees are a commodity like any other.

Edited November 12, 2020 by ECCOnoob

[nightrider 13]

On 06/11/2020 at 02:59, Westie1889 said:

I honestly don’t really understand who people are referring too when they describe ‘the working class’ these days as it seems to bracket everyone within that group as hard done too and struggling financially which I don’t think is true.

 

 

 

Some of the wealthiest people I know are working class. e.g. one is a builder who made his fortune when young (< 40) in the trade

[Westie1889 0]

On 12/11/2020 at 14:08, ECCOnoob said:

They have a career ladder they can climb just like anybody else does.

 

There is nothing stopping those essential shop workers, warehouse operatives, care workers or delivery drivers from pushing for promotion, doing the necessary training to get qualified and working their way up to become supervisors or managers even a company director if they so wish.

 

There are plenty of stories of the life of that Saturday girl behind the till who eventually became the big cheese, earning the big bucks, in the big office.  

 

There are plenty of articles about that "bloke down the market" who develops into owning a multi-billion pound international conglomerate  business.

 

Does everyone have these opportunities? No of course not. There will always be those that miss out either through personal choice or reasons beyond their control which prevents them from taking such steps.......but that is part of life.

 

Nobody said it's easy and nobody is owed a living.  Like I've said before, it's about looking after number one. We all forge our own path in this world and employment is no different.

 

Essential jobs are of course important but whether we like to admit it or not  the fact is people are paid for what their skills, qualifications, rarity and sellable value is worth.

 

It's all well and good saying that delivery workers, shop workers and carers etc are essential but if there is a queue of people with exactly the same level of skill, competence and training to do the job should one ever be replaced, that clearly is going to have limits on what level of pay such job role attracts. 

 

Bottom line is the more skilled or qualified or complex the job role the more someone gets paid. The more rare, sellable or asset a person is the more they can demand they get paid.

 

It's just business. The harsh reality is employees are a commodity like any other.

Totally agree on many of your points, I followed a similar path to the one you describe.

I started as a 16 year old Saturday lad working in a shop for a big national chain and ended up in several senior roles for them before moving to a different business down south.

You are also spot-on with the market trader analogy, the guy who owns the Range being one such example but there are many others in retail.

From my experience the thing that has changed and has created unfairness is that there has been an over-supply of labour for these types of jobs which has stopped many firms investing in training and development programs.

I can’t remember the exact figures but the drop in training budgets is huge over the past 15 years in percentage terms.

Also I have  first hand experience from the employers side about how the opportunity to recruit very good and hardworking Eastern European workers has driven down wages.

20 or so years ago the business I worked for paid warehouse operatives £22k per year, which at the time was sufficient in that area to own a house etc. This was on a full time contract.

The opportunity to hire cheaper workers from abroad was then used systematically to give very small annual pay rises (inflation level increases used to be the norm but they became far less).

Then contracts were changed to a basic 12 hours with no guarantee of additional hours - although workers had to be available for them if the business wanted them to work!

When I left those jobs paid just above minimum

wage with no guarantee of full time hours, so actually far less than 20 years ago.

I was once in a meeting that left a bitter taste where the logistics director said that he would tell the union no pay rise this year and if they didn’t like it he would get more workers in from abroad to replace the local workers.

 

This in my view is where things have gone too far and the deck is stacked against people.

I agree there will always be people at the bottom on lower wages, those without qualifications or the required skills won’t ever earn a fortune.

However, they should earn enough to cover the basics they need to live, not to have a flash lifestyle but to just house, feed and cloth them and their families to a reasonable standard.

 

Businesses have taken advantage of this in a big way and for me it’s morally wrong. 
Also the general population end up paying for it in taxes for income support, housing benefit etc so I think it would be better for those people to be paid a living wage and the rest of us pay for that as we should through a higher cost of goods through the till.

If I have to pay another 20p for my Starbucks so that the barista can live then no problem.

 

 

 

 

That was exactly my point, I don’t think class as used by the Labour Party in the last election is relevant anymore as there has been huge social mobility in the last 3 to 4 decades.

When they use language that assumes/argues all the working class are downtrodden and have no opportunities a sizeable proportion of working class people switch-off as it’s not relevant to their situation.

 

 

On 12/11/2020 at 14:16, nightrider said:

Some of the wealthiest people I know are working class. e.g. one is a builder who made his fortune when young (< 40) in the trade.

[the_bloke 17]

The class system of the 1970s no longer exists. People can't be pigeonholed into classes based upon their background in an age of social mobility.

 

Classes have become weaponised by political parties for one to hate the other. One party says the 'working class' should hate the 'middle and upper classes' because they apparently have all the money and dump on the working class, another party says the 'middle class' should hate on the 'working class' because they get everything for free. It's all bobbins.

 

If you want to hate on people who have more things in life than you, then that's called jealousy - and ironically, being jealous and bitter has no class.